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Old 11-09-2015, 09:40 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Changing To Preterism from Rapture Doctrine

Traditionalists cannot think the way we do when we say we allow the bible to correct us. they're so stuck in traditions, and so unaccustomed to letting the bible teach them or correct them that they only look for what they already believe in the bible when they read it.

Letting the bible be a book that instructs them as to what to believe is a totally alien concept to them.

Sticking to the POINT of this thread, which was violated terribly by the specific people who were asked to abide by it, let me say this:


TESTIMONY OF WHY I CHANGED PROPHETIC VIEWS


In the early 90's I preached a bible study one Tuesday night from the book of Revelation regarding the opening of the seven-sealed book. I told the congregation that it was a viewpoint that was entirely different from anything I taught about that issue before. I was taking it to a personal perspective, rather than an "end of the world" perspective. I taught that we are like the books that God is opening up, and indicated that a series of dealings upon our "self life" must occur to "break" our lives open, in order to reveal Christ.

I do not rely upon feelings to determine what is truth. However, there should be a witness of the Spirit when one is preaching or teaching truth. And I was overwhelmed with an anointing presence of God as I taught, while some of the saints wept with hands raised as I taught. What an unusual manifestation of glory in a regular, what was normally, a "toned-down" mid-week bible study!

And I felt as though God was slapping me on the back, encouraging me, saying, "Now you're getting somewhere!"

Things progressed in the mid 90's. I formed a website and began writing my studies, and posting them on my website, not even realizing where they would take me. A series entitled THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK SERIES, shown on this website in the MATURITY page, was the next step. I saw the temple imagery in the book of Revelation as being indicative of the Church built on the Rock by Jesus, according to Matthew 16:18. I began concentrating on that aspect of Revelation, noting that the book was a Revelation of Jesus Christ, and not bombs and computer chips.

Before I even recognized the slant of prophecy to be what I now see it as, I did a study entitled TAKE A BITE OF ETERNAL LIFE. It is about Revelation's 5th chapter where Jesus, like a High Priest, entering heaven, like a most holy place, and obtaining the book to redeem mankind. Like someone going into the Garden again, after being barred out.

I promised the Lord I would preach this everywhere I went. It was a message that stressed Acts 2:38 salvation, and opened Revelation up in an entirely new light to me.

Shortly afterwards, I was invited to speak at the UPCI's CANADA CONFERENCE, where I preached it in obedience to my promise to God.

It was about then, also, that someone of an entirely different denomination contacted me, and indicated something miraculous was occurring. He said he heard tapes by a man named Malcolm Smith from Britain who spoke about Revelation 5 in a manner he never read or heard before in his life. The guy asked me if I heard M. Smith before. I never heard of him in my life. He was blown away. He said the very point I noted in my study about Jesus being High Priest and entering the most holy place of heaven is exactly what M. Smith noted he never heard before from anyone.

Well, neither had I!

And it was THAT study that opened this entire perspective of Revelation up to me.

Soon I received a call from an apostolic minister in the USA whose congregant informed him that I was teaching the same things he was. He was amazed at how young I was (mid 30's at that time) since he knew several others who were into this as well, but all older brethren. I did not see all of Matthew 24 fulfilled at that time, and this brother indicated to me it was indeed all fulfilled. So I began searching and challenging traditions I had been taught years before. I wanted to be Berean, and examine in scripture everything I was taught to ensure that it was so.

Then I received another note from a member of Rev. Larry T. Smith's church, who witnessed the same thing. Bro. Smith and I were teaching the same thing, too!

I contacted Bro. Smith and came to preach for him, and did not even concentrate on prophecy. However, what I concentrated upon was "who we are in Christ," and how Revelation speaks of that aspect of our lives. The work of the cross became central in my studies for those, and several more years to follow. Revelation became a book of Victory to me, and not something horrible. And Bro. Smith jumped up afterwards, and noted that I preached the same thing he was preaching at about the time I was receiving these thoughts, the mid 90's.

These two men of God were dropped into my lap, in the midst of my studies, in what I believe to be genuine Apostolic witness, as Paul compared notes with the ministers of genuine repute, lest he had run in vain (Gal. 2:1-2).
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Old 11-09-2015, 12:30 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Changing To Preterism from Rapture Doctrine

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Traditionalists cannot think the way we do when we say we allow the bible to correct us. they're so stuck in traditions, and so unaccustomed to letting the bible teach them or correct them that they only look for what they already believe in the bible when they read it.

Letting the bible be a book that instructs them as to what to believe is a totally alien concept to them.

Sticking to the POINT of this thread, which was violated terribly by the specific people who were asked to abide by it, let me say this:


TESTIMONY OF WHY I CHANGED PROPHETIC VIEWS


In the early 90's I preached a bible study one Tuesday night from the book of Revelation regarding the opening of the seven-sealed book. I told the congregation that it was a viewpoint that was entirely different from anything I taught about that issue before. I was taking it to a personal perspective, rather than an "end of the world" perspective. I taught that we are like the books that God is opening up, and indicated that a series of dealings upon our "self life" must occur to "break" our lives open, in order to reveal Christ.

I do not rely upon feelings to determine what is truth. However, there should be a witness of the Spirit when one is preaching or teaching truth. And I was overwhelmed with an anointing presence of God as I taught, while some of the saints wept with hands raised as I taught. What an unusual manifestation of glory in a regular, what was normally, a "toned-down" mid-week bible study!

And I felt as though God was slapping me on the back, encouraging me, saying, "Now you're getting somewhere!"

Things progressed in the mid 90's. I formed a website and began writing my studies, and posting them on my website, not even realizing where they would take me. A series entitled THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK SERIES, shown on this website in the MATURITY page, was the next step. I saw the temple imagery in the book of Revelation as being indicative of the Church built on the Rock by Jesus, according to Matthew 16:18. I began concentrating on that aspect of Revelation, noting that the book was a Revelation of Jesus Christ, and not bombs and computer chips.

Before I even recognized the slant of prophecy to be what I now see it as, I did a study entitled TAKE A BITE OF ETERNAL LIFE. It is about Revelation's 5th chapter where Jesus, like a High Priest, entering heaven, like a most holy place, and obtaining the book to redeem mankind. Like someone going into the Garden again, after being barred out.

I promised the Lord I would preach this everywhere I went. It was a message that stressed Acts 2:38 salvation, and opened Revelation up in an entirely new light to me.

Shortly afterwards, I was invited to speak at the UPCI's CANADA CONFERENCE, where I preached it in obedience to my promise to God.

It was about then, also, that someone of an entirely different denomination contacted me, and indicated something miraculous was occurring. He said he heard tapes by a man named Malcolm Smith from Britain who spoke about Revelation 5 in a manner he never read or heard before in his life. The guy asked me if I heard M. Smith before. I never heard of him in my life. He was blown away. He said the very point I noted in my study about Jesus being High Priest and entering the most holy place of heaven is exactly what M. Smith noted he never heard before from anyone.

Well, neither had I!

And it was THAT study that opened this entire perspective of Revelation up to me.

Soon I received a call from an apostolic minister in the USA whose congregant informed him that I was teaching the same things he was. He was amazed at how young I was (mid 30's at that time) since he knew several others who were into this as well, but all older brethren. I did not see all of Matthew 24 fulfilled at that time, and this brother indicated to me it was indeed all fulfilled. So I began searching and challenging traditions I had been taught years before. I wanted to be Berean, and examine in scripture everything I was taught to ensure that it was so.

Then I received another note from a member of Rev. Larry T. Smith's church, who witnessed the same thing. Bro. Smith and I were teaching the same thing, too!

I contacted Bro. Smith and came to preach for him, and did not even concentrate on prophecy. However, what I concentrated upon was "who we are in Christ," and how Revelation speaks of that aspect of our lives. The work of the cross became central in my studies for those, and several more years to follow. Revelation became a book of Victory to me, and not something horrible. And Bro. Smith jumped up afterwards, and noted that I preached the same thing he was preaching at about the time I was receiving these thoughts, the mid 90's.

These two men of God were dropped into my lap, in the midst of my studies, in what I believe to be genuine Apostolic witness, as Paul compared notes with the ministers of genuine repute, lest he had run in vain (Gal. 2:1-2).


This is a sad story of how a man had his name removed from the Book of Life, by changing the meanings of the words of the book of Revelation.
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Old 11-09-2015, 11:54 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Changing To Preterism from Rapture Doctrine

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Originally Posted by Sabby View Post
Reader,
I came to the Lord in the mid-70's and my end-time beliefs were formed by Lindsey's book, The Late, Great Planet Earth.
I went to Europe in the military shortly thereafter and had pastors that taught a historicist/partial preterist point of view.
During my years in (UPC) bible school I had to take apart both positions to come up with what I thought was the scriptural "intent" on the end of time.

The natural progression of secularism has led to less Christian influence in America; I don't conflate our crumbling culture as a symptom of a nearing Tribulation. We have real martyrs in the middle east.
Jesus said, "...no many knows" and that is what I have come up with. So I live my life as a child of the One whose train will one day arrive at the station. No matter what your end time belief may be, just BE AT THE STATION when He returns with your lamp bright, full of oil and wicks trimmed. Be ready.

Sean is not interested in discussing your question. He is willing to slam anyone that doesn't think like he does.
I believe what I believe. Jesus is going to literally return again.



This has been an ongoing argument for about 2 years Sabby. If I wasnt interested, I would have bailed long ago.


And you are right regarding your seemingly neutral stance in prophecy.

It is better to have NO OPINION, then the WRONG OPINION
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Old 11-09-2015, 09:45 AM
houston houston is offline
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Re: Changing To Preterism from Rapture Doctrine

So... Jesus is a vine with grapes, I assume?? And has a sword coming out of his mouth???
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Old 11-09-2015, 09:55 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Changing To Preterism from Rapture Doctrine

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Originally Posted by houston View Post
So... Jesus is a vine with grapes, I assume?? And has a sword coming out of his mouth???
Yeah! And he has seven eyes and horns. And He actually holds angels turned into stars in his hand, and no longer has dark hair, but white. His eyeballs are also replaced with fire. He's a branch, a stick of wood. He's the first letter of the alphabet and the last one as well. And while He is a lamb he is also a lion!

We could go on and on.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."

Last edited by mfblume; 11-09-2015 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 11-09-2015, 09:59 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Changing To Preterism from Rapture Doctrine

RETHINKING PROPHECY IN LIGHT OF JESUS' REVELATION

The Apostle Paul represented the entire concept of the Old Testament using the picture of the veiled face of Moses, from the days when God first gave the Old Covenant to Israel while atop Mt. Sinai. Paul said that the people of the Old Covenant could never look to the final conclusion and goal of the Old Covenant, as represented by Moses’ veiled face. Contrasting that with the New Testament, he said that "we", the apostles, use great plainness of speech. And he then signified the entire concept of the New Testament as the unveiled face of Jesus Christ, into which we fully gaze, and are changed into the same image (2 Cor. 3:18, 4:6).

But even the temporal glory that shone on Moses’ face was too much for the Israelites. The New Testament, on the other hand, will never fade away. The ultimate work of God in this world is the New Testament church of the living God, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles!

I propose that the entire book of Revelation (unveiling) is the account of the changeover from Law to grace -- the transition from, and the passing away of, the Old Testament, for the inception of the ever glorious New Testament. The first verse of this precious book reads that it was a “Revelation of Jesus Christ”, and not the popular notion today of it being a revelation of nuclear holocaust and Chinese armies and computer chips. The Revelation (unveiling) was written in “signifying” terms (Rev. 1:1). Visionary symbolism, in other words. John was inspired to use the same picture Paul used in writing 2 Corinthians chapter 3. Jesus unveiled! The inspired Apostle Paul used the picture of an unveiled (revealed) face of Jesus Christ as the representation of the entire New Covenant ministry. He said our hearts receive the glory of the knowledge of God in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 4:6).

And with the revelation of Jesus Christ, came many implications. Along with the multiplied thousands who gained salvation through the cross, the unbelieving element of Israel rejected Him, having perpetrated the very cross that is such a blessing to us today. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not (John 1:11)! He found her in the arms of Rome, ultimately calling for Caesar to be her king instead, while they forced Pilate to do away with Him! She was the great harlot (read all of Ezekiel 16). Those who should have accepted Him, cried for His blood to be upon them and their children -- that generation.

That generation was so wicked that Jesus said they were similar to the man set free of demons. After his deliverance, this man experienced a seven-fold worse possession. So it would be with that wicked generation (Matthew 12:43-45). Since they did not fill their hearts with the Lord after His ministry cleared the way of all satanic blinders from their eyes, they became what Revelation calls the habitation of every unclean spirit (Revelation 18:2). They beheld God's glory and rejected it!

In Matthew 21, upon His triumphal entry into Jerusalem, the religious leaders stopped the mouths of His worshippers, and demanded that Christ forbid them. Jesus rebuked them, and began a series of stunning and judgmental parables that spanned from chapter 21 through chapter 24! Never once did Jesus change subjects, as though He spoke of a 2000-year future stretch of time. He was totally immersed in the issue of Jerusalem's rejection of Him, and even issued warning to the church to remain faithful, lest they, too, perish in the judgement to come.

The parable of the two brothers (Matthew 21:28-31) contrasted the people outside the Kingdom at that time with the people of Jerusalem in that generation. One brother refused to work for his father, but later did indeed work. He spoke of the people who would comprise the church. The brother who initially agreed to work, but never did, spoke of Jerusalem and her religious leaders of that day.

The parable of the vineyard (Matthew 21:33-45) showed how the religious leaders of Israel were as trusted husbandmen, who rebelliously beat and smote the messengers of the Vineyard owner, the prophets. These came to gather the fruit of holy lives and dedication to God from the people of Israel. Finally, the slaying of the Son depicted the crucifixion of Jesus, who came, Himself. The Pharisees correctly presumed Christ referred to them when He concurred with their assessment of the guilty husbandmen in the parable, saying they should be slain and bereft of the Kingdom, losing it to another nation bringing forth the fruits.

Matthew 22 parallels Revelation chapters 17-19 in showing a people invited to a wedding supper, who refuse to comply. "But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city (Mat 22:7)." Revelation 17 shows the harlot "city" burned with fire.

After the city was destroyed in the parable, we read, "Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. (Mat 22:8-10)"

Revelation concurs, and shows the wedding feast after the Harlot city is burned with fire. Coincidence?

In Matthew 23, Jesus openly speaks about rebelling Jerusalem of His day as the theme of his parables, telling them they filled the cup of the transgressions in all the righteous blood being shed since the death of Abel. Never before had such a condemnation been laid upon a single generation, in contrast to the times their fathers committed sins. Christ accused one generation of possessing the guilt of all shed blood on the entire earth! But to slay Christ, who would die for all mankind, was certainly worthy of the accusation of having shed all righteous blood in the world up to that time. And what is so revealing in all of this, is that Revelation claims the harlot was filled with the blood of all that was ever shed on the earth, just as Jesus accused Jerusalem (Compare Matthew 23:23-35 with Revelation 18:24)!

In Matthew 24, Jesus is still speaking of the demise of Jerusalem as He points out that the buildings of the temple would not have one stone left standing. The disciples respond to him with questions. "When will the stones be thrown down, what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:3b).

At first glance, the picture is not so clear as to why Jesus would respond to those questions in the manner He did. They would personally hear of wars and rumours of wars, and so forth, in reference to the time of “the end of the world”. However, He did not say the church of two thousand years later would see these things. He said they, the disciples standing right there, would not only see and hear those things, but would, themselves, be afflicted and persecuted. And a cursory reading of the Book of Acts reveals that to have indeed occurred!

Was the sign of the coming of the Son of man to occur in the end of our civilization? When we read the same accounts of this discussion in both Luke and Mark, we see that these disciples asked the same questions. But their questions are phrased differently. “The sign of the coming of the Son of man, and of the end of the world” was actually the events to transpire when the temple would be destroyed, which occurred in 70 AD!

Mark 13:2-4 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luke 21:6-7 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Mark and Luke proceed to give the same general list of events as Matthew 24 did, touted by many to yet be unfulfilled. But the context of Mark and Luke's questions to Jesus undoubtedly regard the same timeframe when the temple would be destroyed in 70 AD!

The Greek term translated as "world" in Matthew 24:3 is "aion", meaning "age". An age actually ended in 70 AD. That does not mean the New Testament did not begin until 70 AD! But it does mean that an age did indeed end. Howso?

In Matthew 23, Jesus contrasted the Jews of His day, that generation, with the entire race of Jews who persecuted the prophets throughout the centuries. Although their fathers had committed such heinous crimes, that specific generation would fill the cup (Matthew 23:32), or pass the line of God's forbearance. Never before was one generation accused of the guilt for all shed blood upon the earth! Their fathers were never accused of such guilt, though they persecuted many great men of God. But in crucifying and scourging Jesus, and the disciples, the Jews of that day would receive the wrath worthy for the entire world's shed blood. Surely an age was ending!

There was nothing in all of Jesus Christ's words to inspire the disciples to ask about events 2,000 years into their future. Jesus did not proceed to speak about our day in 2003. All that He spoke about in Matthew chapter 21 through Chapter 24 was the implications of Jerusalem's rejection of His triumphal entry, and how the kingdom would go to another nation, while Jerusalem would be judged.

When He walked into the temple the day they rejected Him, and looked, only to find no welcome of praise for Him, He left and cursed a fig tree for having many leaves, but no fruit to receive (Mark 11:11-14). That fig tree was Israel. And she had all the trappings, like leaves, of religious activity, without the actual fruit of praise and godly servitude to the Lord. Israel was cursed by Jesus Christ. Their house would soon be left desolate, as a result.

He looked back to women "of Jerusalem", weeping for Him as He carried His cross up Calvary's hill (Luke 23:28-30). And He told them to weep for themselves and for their children -- that generation. He said the days would come when they would call for the rocks and mountains to cover them. This was the very picture noted in the sixth seal of Revelation 6:16!

Why does the Book of Revelation speak so much about the judgment upon Israel for rejecting Him in the days of His revelation? Simply realize that the Lord spent many parables and discussions concerning that very issue in the Gospels! He is simply being consistent in both the Gospels and the Revelation.

Revelation shows two contrasting groups of people who accepted Him and were blessed, or rejected Him and were cursed.

Christ brought a New Jerusalem into existence. A New Israel. A New Temple, called the Church, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles born again, losing their Gentile and Jewish states, and made a new nation altogether! He even told the resisting Pharisees that if the people praising Him during His triumphal entry should cease, the stones would cry out. He meant that there would be a new temple comprised of lively stones, from amongst the quarries of the good and the bad, and the halt and the lame, who would accept Him (1 Peter 2:5, 9). And this new temple's stones of the souls of precious people born-again, would become a house of God built up and inhabited by Jesus, Himself, showing forth His praises!
..
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...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."

Last edited by mfblume; 11-09-2015 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 11-09-2015, 12:25 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Changing To Preterism from Rapture Doctrine

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Yeah! And he has seven eyes and horns. And He actually holds angels turned into stars in his hand, and no longer has dark hair, but white. His eyeballs are also replaced with fire. He's a branch, a stick of wood. He's the first letter of the alphabet and the last one as well. And while He is a lamb he is also a lion!

We could go on and on.



So are you eliminating a literal Jesus?(as you mock these explanations of his attributes)?
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Old 11-09-2015, 12:24 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Changing To Preterism from Rapture Doctrine

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So... Jesus is a vine with grapes, I assume?? And has a sword coming out of his mouth???


So are you eliminating Jesus as literal?
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Old 11-09-2015, 11:58 AM
Monterrey Monterrey is offline
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Re: Changing To Preterism from Rapture Doctrine

Sean,

You need to jump TJJJ also. He is a preterist and a Jerk.

Unregistered told me so.
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Old 11-09-2015, 12:27 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Changing To Preterism from Rapture Doctrine

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Sean,

You need to jump TJJJ also. He is a preterist and a Jerk.

Unregistered told me so.

If he wants to arm wrestle, Then we can.

Futurists always beat preterists in arm wrestling!
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