Isaiah 3 and jewelry...

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Ok how about in definition of what Paul would have meant when he said costly apparel??

What I'm getting at that if If 1 tim 2 is not against jewelry as many say then it's not against costly apparel as well. If costly apparel is wrong at anytime then should the other items listed be as well?

Hope I'm making sense.

I do think Paul is referring to fancy clothing that some of these women were specifically wearing. I don't think he was abstractly talking about clothing in general. However, his intentions were to point their specific charades to what he defined as true beauty, not to make a once-for-all prohibition about clothing items. That's very non-NTish.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Let me add a question that maybe Jeffery will help with?

Is costly apparel ever right?

Costly is pretty relative. Someone people deem a $50 shirt expensive while someone else would think it is not. So who determines costly and by what standards?

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Costly is pretty relative. Someone people deem a $50 shirt expensive while someone else would think it is not. So who determines costly and by what standards?

But is costly apparel over ok to wear? Whatever it is.

"What I'm getting at that if If 1 tim 2 is not against jewelry as many say then it's not against costly apparel as well. If costly apparel is wrong at anytime then should the other items listed be as well?"

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

But is costly apparel over ok to wear? Whatever it is.

"What I'm getting at that if If 1 tim 2 is not against jewelry as many say then it's not against costly apparel as well. If costly apparel is wrong at anytime then should the other items listed be as well?"

And based on the reading, I still think it's the wrong question.

Modesty exhorts us to appropriate for the occasion. There certainly are times when "costly apparel" (whatever that means exactly) is adequate.

But what "costly apparel" means in our context, and what it specifically referred to in the Ephesian church are two different things. We have to ask first what it meant in their time/place/culture, then we can decide what it means to us.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

And based on the reading, I still think it's the wrong question.

Modesty exhorts us to appropriate for the occasion. There certainly are times when "costly apparel" (whatever that means exactly) is adequate.

But what "costly apparel" means in our context, and what it specifically referred to in the Ephesian church are two different things. We have to ask first what it meant in their time/place/culture, then we can decide what it means to us.

Go to go so this is a drive bye:

Wouldn't costly apparel be clothes that is expensive? I know, what is that, but it would like gluttony in the bible, it doesn't say how much to eat, but our conscience speaks to us when we enter excess.

I will look more at the word modesty later.


appreciate the input.

[Truthseeker]

Going back to the RDP thought about no gold on the outside of the temple in mind consider this, the priest were decked out for beauty and glory the bible says. Does not the bible say we are of the royal priesthood? priest unto God? yep. They wore adornment items on their garments.



Ex 28:2-9

2 And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty.

3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.

6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.

7 It shall have the two shoulder pieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together.

8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.

9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:



Ex 28:10-15

10 Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.

11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.

12 And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD upon his two shoulders for a memorial.

13 And thou shalt make ouches of gold;

14 And two chains of pure gold at the ends; of wreathen work shalt thou make them, and fasten the wreathen chains to the ouches.

15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
KJV


there's more in that chapter about the decked out preist in gold, blue scarlet etc.....

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Going back to the RDP thought about no gold on the outside of the temple in mind consider this, the priest were decked out for beauty and glory the bible says. Does not the bible say we are of the royal priesthood? priest unto God? yep. They wore adornment items on their garments.



Ex 28:2-9

2 And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty.

3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.

6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.

7 It shall have the two shoulder pieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together.

8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.

9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:



Ex 28:10-15

10 Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.

11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.

12 And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD upon his two shoulders for a memorial.

13 And thou shalt make ouches of gold;

14 And two chains of pure gold at the ends; of wreathen work shalt thou make them, and fasten the wreathen chains to the ouches.

15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
KJV


there's more in that chapter about the decked out preist in gold, blue scarlet etc.....

Yeah, if he wants to use that faulty shadow/type application to its most literal extent. Good point

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

it's funny, you act like your saying stuff I never thought of or read before. You point about the gold on the inside of the tabernacle is point to consider, but so is the outside was badger skin if I remember right, so much for fancy clothes we wear today.

The outside had curtains which fully covered the tabernacle...so much for skirts that barely cover the knees !


Of course, I believe all of Paul words, proper understanding might be another thing though.

What would be an alternate "proper understanding" of the plainness of: "not with gold jewelry, pearls or costly apparel":___________?

I know in Tim 2 it says costly apparel while in peter just mentions apparel, I missed your greek lesson on it, so how is adorning with close ok again? You mention 300-500 suits but clothes don't have to be expensive to be adoning? Would a 50 dollar red suit be OK?

I'm in total agreement w/ your statement about the red suit....which is precisely the reason that I don't wear colored shirts, or loud colors to church. I do not wish to draw attention to myself, but to represent Christ. My point is, & was, that I Ptr. 3 does not prohibit the wearing of clothes based upon the Greek reading, which is why the NIV, NLT, HCSB, NKJV, RSV, TAB, etc. all render the passage as fine, or costly apparel. When I see people doing this, I believe they're not being honest w/ the text, but just trying to raise a smoke-screen to justify their worldliness.

For the record, My wife and I do not wear jewelry, well she does wear a bracelet that tells time, but I wear nothing. I'm just looking at this subject from all angles.

Why not? I, too, am looking at this angle to see what they have to offer from a biblical basis. So far, I can sincerely say that the "evidence" has been very weak & they've not adequately dealt w/ I Tim. 2, I Ptr. 3, or the relationship of the pronouns in Deut. 7:25.


You didn't answer my question about if sinners will be outside the NJ city? Do you believe earth will be burnt up before the NJ city comes??

Rev. is a highly metaphorical book, deemed the "Book of Symbols" by scholars. It answers to Daniel of the OT. Having said that, I do not believe that Christ is LITERALLY married to a physical city w/ walls, etc. I believe the language to be symbolical, just as the woman standing on the moon, clothed w/ the sun.

Hold your horses, NO, God does not use sinful symbols. But the example you've provided is at the end of the eschaton, after the redeemed are translated...not while they're here on Earth as His dwelling place. Then sure, those who make it will wear crowns, etc. But, "NOW" we should appear as He did, plain, ordinary, w/ the Glory emanating from the inside to the outside. This does not mean that we cannot be presentable to the culture of our day [as did Christ], so long as we don't violate Scriptural principles.

For ex., I have a very pretty bright green polo shirt [$18] that I like to wear. But, I'm not sure if I'm violating this principle that we're discussing by wearing it. But, if I wore a white polo [all $18 at an outlet] it, too, is pretty...so what do you do?? I believe we have to be relevant to our culture [not appearing like a Mormon, for ex.] until it violates Scripture...which this nation's love of ornamentation does.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

People that use type/shadows to make literal applications to the nth degree are confounding. Most people believe the Temple spoke of how the Kingdom of God comes in servant clothes, the riches are to be discovered.... or that the beauty of the inside is in the Temple... But when someone uses a metaphorical type/shadow without biblical instruction to demand we wear clothes like badger skins, I can't help but chuckle.

"Chuckle" all day long. "Whatsoever things were written before hand were written FOR OUR ADMONITION..." [I Cor. 10. in discussing the Israelites].

The only use of our bodies as the temple are from Paul who spoke against those who were giving their bodies over to sexual immorality --- he reminded them that they are the living, breathing, temples where God wants to live and that flagrant sin is not appropriate (of course he also used the "temple of God" analogy corporately in another setting, not individually).

Using the Temple of God analogies to talk about how we should be plain on the outside really is done with poor Biblical interpretation and is unfortunate.

Then using the Red Sea as a type of our applicability of water baptism was also "poor biblical interpreation" & "unfortunate" ! Poor Paul, what was he thinking??????????

And I should remind you that the Kingdom of God is no longer badger skins, but a bright-shining city set upon a hill (just to update the word-picture), the Kingdom of God is the New Jerusalem coming down from above, a shining city whose builder and maker is God. Like our redemptions, that city is both now and later.

And I should remind YOU that I Tim. 2 & I Ptr. 3 was addressed to this "city" in a very literal sense. Ever heard of the Golden Rule of Interpretation?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Going back to the RDP thought about no gold on the outside of the temple in mind consider this, the priest were decked out for beauty and glory the bible says. Does not the bible say we are of the royal priesthood? priest unto God? yep. They wore adornment items on their garments.



Ex 28:2-9

2 And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty.

3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.

6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.

7 It shall have the two shoulder pieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together.

8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.

9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:



Ex 28:10-15

10 Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.

11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.

12 And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD upon his two shoulders for a memorial.

13 And thou shalt make ouches of gold;

14 And two chains of pure gold at the ends; of wreathen work shalt thou make them, and fasten the wreathen chains to the ouches.

15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
KJV


there's more in that chapter about the decked out preist in gold, blue scarlet etc.....

1st off, it's hilarious to watch Max squirm about the costly apparel issue & try to foster the ol' cultural card relative to Ephesus [tired & worn out excuse]. Curiously, he doesn't say the same thing about Paul's teachings on repentace, faith, etc. Tell us Max, was that also merely to be understood by Ephesus, & not applicable to us today??? Then YOU wanna' talk to ME about "poor biblical interpretation". Puhleeeeeeeeeezze...

Now, to the priests: The priests were not the Temple, dwelling place of God, in any way, as we are today. This was a temporal deal typifying the beauty of our Great High Priest who bears us on His shoulders & Heart. But, when it came to God's historical places of dwelling, no jewels on the outside! Max can scorn it all day long, but Paul repeatedly drew from typology to form his doctrinal posturing. Max is the one who apparently needs some lessons in Hermeneutics.