Firearms Refresher Course

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

Not any better than just offering Matthew 28:19.

Mouth of two or three witnesses, Sister. TWO or THREE.

Ah....so when you ask for those witnesses, it's legit. When the mods and libs ask for those witnesses regarding standards issues, we are told 'if God said it once, that's good enough!'

ROFL!!!

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

I did post scripture. I then said what I believed that scripture to be saying.

But I showed you where the Word of God showed your 'one scripture' was used by you OUT of CONTEXT. This means you offered NO SCRIPTURE to prove your point. To say that 'YOU believe' that scripture to say what YOU said it does, does NOT make it so. The Bible must only be interpreted by it's own words. This is why I keep saying, "CONTEXT."

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

While he was a trinitarian, The book "Tortured for Christ" a book about the imprisonment of Richard Wurmbrand, is a very inspiring story of what took place behind the iron curtain in Romania with the war prisoners.

BTW - Voice of the Martyrs gives this book away free of charge.

I have read the book many times and my wife has the original paper back.
Martyrs Mirror should be read as well.

http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/

MARTYRS MIRROR

of the DEFENSELESS CHRISTIANS

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Ah....so when you ask for those witnesses, it's legit. When the mods and libs ask for those witnesses regarding standards issues, we are told 'if God said it once, that's good enough!'

ROFL!!!

Ahhh, blame shifting now, huh?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

But I showed you where the Word of God showed your 'one scripture' was used by you OUT of CONTEXT. This means you offered NO SCRIPTURE to prove your point. To say that 'YOU believe' that scripture to say what YOU said it does, does NOT make it so. The Bible must only be interpreted by it's own words. This is why I keep saying, "CONTEXT."

I guess this needs to be bigger?

[HeavenlyOne]

But to pacify you, here is the second witness.


1Ti 3:5
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

rule

to set or place before

1. to set over
2. to be over, to superintend, preside over
3. to be a protector or guardian
1. to give aid
4. to care for, give attention to
1. profess honest occupations

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

But I showed you where the Word of God showed your 'one scripture' was used by you OUT of CONTEXT. This means you offered NO SCRIPTURE to prove your point. To say that 'YOU believe' that scripture to say what YOU said it does, does NOT make it so. The Bible must only be interpreted by it's own words. This is why I keep saying, "CONTEXT."

Read the above post. Check out the Strong's definition for 'rule'.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

Ahhh, blame shifting now, huh?

I tried!

But then, it's different, as I claimed, right?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Read the above post. Check out the Strong's definition for 'rule'.

Sister, in all sincerity, I do so respect you trying to stand for what you believe. But, there is no way the scripture you gave can in any way be used to prove that Paul meant a man is to kill another man.

If you would read further into Paul’s criteria for an Overseer, you would find Paul’s emphasis is on these men being Spiritual leaders. The ‘rule’ Paul speaks of is that these men both acknowledge and demonstrate the type traits that are agreeable with Christlikeness; both at home and in the company of other believers. That is what Paul was dealing with. Nothing more.

At no time did Paul mention or hint at anything closely related to what you are saying. Like I said, your usage of this passage is out of context. Sister, there is not a credible Bible commentary you can offer that says what you do about this passage. Not one.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That is not true. If someone is trying to kill someone else and you engage them to get them off and try to keep them from doing more harm, you are the defender.

Brother, I had been in many situations in my past that people were out to kill other people. I was in the middle of some of those situations. Not always does some one get hurt, or extreme force must be employed. You would be surprised how verbal commands and warnings can get someone to divert their focus on to you. You then become a passive defender. Brother Praxeas, you may not believe this, but once I grabbed a drunk with an axe handle who was trying to smash an another guy in the head. Where did I grab him? His ear lobe. I used my pointer finger and my thumb and took a hold of his lobe (I was once in Catholic school had this done to me by a Nun) and twisted. He dropped the axe handle and went to grab my wrist, I then twisted tighter, and He then went to his knees and went into the position of submission. There are many different ways to use passive resistance. I have had people get in my face and I just had to say "In Jesus name" Brother Praxeas it worked.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That it might be sustained does not make you now the attacker nor does it make it retribution.

No, it makes you a retaliator.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The definition of the word there is Punishment inflicted in return for an injury or an
offense; retribution; -- often, in a bad sense, passionate
or unrestrained revenge.

Other dictionaries concur too.

www.dictionary.com
to exact punishment or expiation for a wrong on behalf of, esp. in a resentful or vindictive spirit: He revenged his murdered brother. 2.to take vengeance for; inflict punishment for; avenge: He revenged his brother's murder. –verb (used without object) 3.to take revenge. –noun 4.the act of revenging; retaliation for injuries or wrongs; vengeance. 5.something done in vengeance. 6.the desire to revenge; vindictiveness. 7.an opportunity to retaliate or gain satisfaction.

Vengeance in the bible from the greek word means retribution.

retribution

1382, "repayment," from L. retributionem (nom. retributio) "recompense, repayment," from retributus, pp. of retribuere "hand back, repay," from re- "back" + tribuere "to assign, allot" (see tribute). Sense of "evil given for evil done" is from day of retribution (1526) in Christian theology, the time of divine reward or punishment.

And Im looking at dictionary.com which has several sources and not one gives as a definition "defend" for vengeance. Some of these words and definitions are obsolete though as languages and definitions change over time


I agree, payback or retribution is His only. However if we really take that to it's logical conclusion that might also mean we should oppose jail time and the death penalty...

If you or your family and property are attacked you will then retaliate with retrebution. This is an argument of semantics, and still you have not proved that a Christian may use deadly force to protect life and limb.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

As I said before, if you have to use violence to stop someone you may end up harming them or killing them.

You're a Christian therefore you are non-violent and therefore can not get violent. If we are filled with the Holy Ghost when do we transgress the order to be angry and SIN NOT. We are ordered NOT to let the sun go down on our wrath, which in the Greek is flare anger, not passionate wrath that turns into violent rage (which is used to end a human life) Please let's try to keep in mind. People may be able to kill deer, rabbits, lions, tigers, and bears, but let's try to kill humans? How about hand to hand combat? One man has a knife and you have a knife, man was found in the process of attacking you home. You have awakened to an intruder and his has a knife and you grab a knife, now what? Please let's keep in mind that you are filled with the Holy Ghost and now you are standing in a bathrobe with a butcher knife, and the other chap has a Bowie knife? Eye to eye and both of you are thinking of one thing. How do I get out of this situation?

All I'm saying is that killing a human is not like flushing a goldfish down a toilet or smashing a snake with a shovel's blade. You're filled with the Holy Ghost of God and I don't believe that it would be easy to squeeze the trigger.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

As I said before, I would opt for stopping them without killing them,

Excellent, and it's not an option, it would have to be your only focus in the Holy Ghost.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

but if they died as a result that does not mean you murdered them or committed vengeance.

I don't think you understand what it takes to have this scenario play out? Your focus must be not to kill but to stop. My wife will not kill, she will kick a poodle across a kitchen floor like it was a soccer ball, to keep it off one of her babies, but she would never take a human life. Can she handle a firearm? Extremely well, her father is Ret Lt Col Sherman Pratt, who taught his children how to protect themselves. Although she has that knowledge she does not want weapons in our home (not that I would want any) she knows the neighborhood, and still is willing to depend on Jesus Christ alone to protect. Brother Praxeas, I don't see in the Bible where the first century church was able to defend themselves against the hostile Jews or the pagan Gentiles.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

yes I know, that is my point. But they know that it CAN happen and it does happen.

But they are trained to make sure that violence be not the focus.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yup but that does not mean there are never situations where the only way to stop someone from harming another is to resort to violence and that does not prevent the possibilty of death occuring as a result.

Brother Praxeas I cannot see how Holy Ghost people can get that much rage mustered up to cause another person's death.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

yes, Bagdad USA

You live in Bagdad California and it's that dangerous? Well, all I can say is get some prayer going or move next to LadyRev.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com