Monopoly on Apostolic Identity is no more ....

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by revrandy

So cutting hair builds self-esteem?

Looking less than our potential always lowers self-esteem and can cause insecurity issues. My wife didn't grow up UPC and to all of a sudden not be able to wear makeup, pants, and cutting hair was huge.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Ferd

Urshan School, David Bernard, UPCI National Youth Congress etc are all UPCI functions/ministers/organizations.

why the shock that DB actually believes in the stuff he has always believed in and continues to hold the same standards he as always held?

good grief Dan, I get you don't like any kind of traditional OP trappings. I get that completely. God in his heaven knows you have pointed that out plenty of times! We all get that you don't like long hair, long dresses and I suppose you think holes in ears are a form of worship to the great Lord above.

and good for you too....

but do you have to do this continual attack on the UPCI and the things it does? YOU LEFT DAN.

You left. You have your own deal now and good on ya. How about leaving the rest of us alone. Here is a news flash for you. The UPCI doesn't speak for you. The UPCI isn't in the business of strong arming any of the myriad or other organizations/pseudo-organizations/and various and sundry groups who either used to be UPCI or never were UPCI.

The UPCI is about itself. The UPCI wants to hold on to some things that are still important to the membership of the organization. Move on. The UPCI isn't "sanitizing" any thing. The UPCI isn't "censoring" anything.

The UPCI is simply saying this is who we are, what we have been, and what we intend to be in the future.

Your use of the words "Sanitizing" and "censoring" are attempts on your part to marginalize and demean a group you happily walked away from.

There is an old song. some of the lyrics are appropriate. Don't go away mad, just go away.

I agree with this.

I don't agree with the UPC on certain things, but I do believe they are an organization that God has used and continues to use greatly, despite their imperfections. (To my mind, there is no such thing as a perfect organization anyway.)

It baffles me that a man who has left the UPC denomination spends so much time talking about them still. DA seems to have an almost evangelistic zeal with some of this stuff, to the point where it just seems obsessive at times. I highly doubt that this is some mission the Lord has given him to pursue.

[KWSS1976]

Ferd I since anger in you reply to what I posted..

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I agree with this.

I don't agree with the UPC on certain things, but I do believe they are an organization that God has used and continues to use greatly, despite their imperfections. (To my mind, there is no such thing as a perfect organization anyway.)

It baffles me that a man who has left the UPC denomination spends so much time talking about them still. DA seems to have an almost evangelistic zeal with some of this stuff, to the point where it just seems obsessive at times. I highly doubt that this is some mission the Lord has given him to pursue.

Yep, seriously he needs to examine his motives!

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by Ferd

Urshan School, David Bernard, UPCI National Youth Congress etc are all UPCI functions/ministers/organizations.

why the shock that DB actually believes in the stuff he has always believed in and continues to hold the same standards he as always held?

good grief Dan, I get you don't like any kind of traditional OP trappings. I get that completely. God in his heaven knows you have pointed that out plenty of times! We all get that you don't like long hair, long dresses and I suppose you think holes in ears are a form of worship to the great Lord above.

and good for you too....

but do you have to do this continual attack on the UPCI and the things it does? YOU LEFT DAN.

You left. You have your own deal now and good on ya. How about leaving the rest of us alone. Here is a news flash for you. The UPCI doesn't speak for you. The UPCI isn't in the business of strong arming any of the myriad or other organizations/pseudo-organizations/and various and sundry groups who either used to be UPCI or never were UPCI.

The UPCI is about itself. The UPCI wants to hold on to some things that are still important to the membership of the organization. Move on. The UPCI isn't "sanitizing" any thing. The UPCI isn't "censoring" anything.

The UPCI is simply saying this is who we are, what we have been, and what we intend to be in the future.

Your use of the words "Sanitizing" and "censoring" are attempts on your part to marginalize and demean a group you happily walked away from.

There is an old song. some of the lyrics are appropriate. Don't go away mad, just go away.

This is a posting that I can respect and agree with, in principle. UPCI has every right to take a pause, come to a consensus determination on who they are now with respect to yesterday and tomorrow, then declare their identity. I don't agree with many of their stands, but I am willing to agree that they have every right to take them.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by revrandy

Why did your church split?

It all started when a young girl wore eyeshadow on the platform and we started a youth service. My pastor resigned and half went with him including many conservatives, including my parents. My parents and a few others go to other UPC churches now. The conservatives left because of the way my pastor was treated. You ain't never seen anything worse than a church split.

[SDG]

Ferd,

Bernards' first paragraph indicates he is speaking to all Oneness Apostlics:

Most Christian movements have initially placed great emphasis on a lifestyle that is separate
from the world, teaching that believers should manifest holiness in attitudes, conduct, speech,
amusements, and dress. Practical teachings of this nature were prominent in ancient Christianity
of the first three centuries, medieval revival movements, the Protestant Reformation, the
Holiness movement, and the Pentecostal movement.2

Today, however, Oneness Pentecostals, or Apostolics, are one of the few groups to maintain
the importance of holiness in adornment, dress, and amusements. Other groups typically argue
that these teachings are outmoded or must be modified greatly because of changes in culture.
How relevant to the church today are biblical instructions? Should they be modified in light
of cultural changes?

The discussion goes beyond the org ... as HIS paper implicates ... and seeks to influence an entire movement.

Do you hold DB to the same litmus test ... I think not.

The discussion continues ... even if you think some are not qualified to engage in it.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

This is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes something just doesn't make sense. Though I didn't believe that it was wrong for women to cut their hair I still wouldn't let my wife because of what others would say. I honestly thought only a few people cared about the hair issue until our church split. I just thought everyone did it because they were scared of the pastor.

Aquila gave his explanation, and I accept it at face value, but ....the hair issue aside...

Yes, "studying the word" in order to find an interpretation that would be more convenient to you IS a bad thing!

If someone is looking for an interpretation that's more suitable to them convenient doctrine, they'll always be able to find it. That path, and that mindset, can be a slippery slope. Just take a look at the various "gay Apostolic churches" out there now, if you don't believe me.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I agree with this.

I don't agree with the UPC on certain things, but I do believe they are an organization that God has used and continues to use greatly, despite their imperfections. (To my mind, there is no such thing as a perfect organization anyway.)

It baffles me that a man who has left the UPC denomination spends so much time talking about them still. DA seems to have an almost evangelistic zeal with some of this stuff, to the point where it just seems obsessive at times. I highly doubt that this is some mission the Lord has given him to pursue.

Some have been hurt by the UPCI's implication that they are not Apostolic because they are not in agreement with all of the UPCI's outward standards. Others just realize that you can't put new wine into old wineskins.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Ferd,

Bernards' first paragraph indicates he is speaking to all Oneness Apostlics:

The discussion goes beyond the org ... as this paper implicates ... and seeks to influence an entire movement.

Do you hold DB to the same litmus test ... I think not.

The discussion continues ... even if you think some are not qualified to engage in it.

Does Brother Bernard post on various Forums, blogs and websites pushing his agenda for the UPCI? A fair question.