Women Bishop

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by seekerman

In the NAJ (New Adjusted Translation", "must be" should be eliminated, "husband" taken out, "wife" taken out so that the passage reads...

"a bishop should be breathing."

I like it when people don't have a logical answer so they resort to sarcasm. Reveals the intellect, or lack thereof.

[KeptByTheWord]

I haven't read through every single post on this thread, but did read most. My question is this. Why did Jesus not pick any women to be his disciples?

And I've heard the question answered in this way - that this was before the cross, and before the new dispensation of grace. However then, why did the apostles again consider two men to take Jesus' place?

Also, why are there no women elders mentioned anywhere in the NT? We know that Phoebe was a servant or a minister of some kind, according to various translations. But no mention at all of her being an "elder", or a bishop.

Personally, after much careful study of the Word, what I find seems to be this. Women have a ministry and can definitely be used in many ways to minister to others. However, when it comes to taking any kind of authority over a man, that is overstepping their boundaries that have been set up since Adam and Eve. The Bible does teach that women can teach, preach, evangelize, and minister in whatever way they can. But when it involves taking authority over a man, I do not believe that is a woman's place.

When I look at scripture, and see the examples of the wonderful women of the Bible, to name a few would be Esther (submitted to Mordecai), Hannah (submitted to her husband, and the priest), Mary the mother of Jesus (submitted to her husband Joseph). These women are known down through the ages of time because of the great role they played in the history of Israel, but they WERE submitted to their husbands/father figure.

However, when you look at some other examples, let's take Miriam for one. She and Aaron felt that Moses wasn't doing a good enough job and began to murmur against him, wanting to do things their way. What happened? God struck Miriam with leprosy - not Aaron - although Aaron was right in there with her… yet… God chose to deal with Miriam's rebellion - why? I've always wondered why Aaron didn't have to receive punishment as well. I think it is because God was making a point that the power a women has with her words, and the grievous effects, and outcomes of it, first began in the garden and have to be dealt with severely.

Male and female were created differently. Women was taken from man. It is a fact that galls women every day. Somehow we would like to believe it was different that we are created equal, but we're not. And that's the plain truth of the matter. There is a difference, and men were meant for, and created for leadership, women were not. We were created to be helpmeets for our husbands, we were taken out of man's side, and not created separately.

This is a galling statement, my dear women readers, and believe me, I have studied long and hard about the matter. This issue hits close to home, as I have a female family member who is an ordained minister of the UPC. She performs weddings, burials, and oversees a church camp. She is one of the most humble women I know, and she has no husband.

Looking again at other women in the Bible who were known for trouble, that would have to include Jezebel. A Jezebel is known as a women who rises up against her husband, and begins to take authority that doesn't belong to her, and terrible, terrible things take place, as with the first Jezebel, and then the one mentioned in Revelation. Terrible things took place because they were not acting in submission, and humility. No great testimony emerges from their lives!

I look at submission as a safety net, a protection, and a covering from God for women. It is a beautiful thing to see it in action. Look at Esther's life. Look at her submission to Mordecai. Look what great, and wonderful things took place because she obeyed!
Look at Hannah's life. Because of her submission to her husband, also to the priest, and obedience, God took that and used her son to be one of the greatest prophets to walk this earth.

In looking at this issue from a biblical standpoint, using the examples laid out above, I see women in ministry doing wonderful things for the Lord...

BUT I can't find ONE.SINGLE.EXAMPLE of a woman taking authority over a man, and God being pleased with it, blessing it, and making an example out of it for all women to follow.... (and Deborah didn’t take the authority, the man Barach, didn’t want it, although she offered it first to him…)

If someone could provide such an example, that would be awesome.... I would love to hear it.

So… this is why Jesus did NOT choose any women to be his disciples, although there were plenty of women hanging around him on a regular basis. In fact the Mary's seemed to be with him just about everywhere he went and were certainly there during his death and resurrection.

Women, we do have a place in ministry. That is so clear, looking at the examples of Esther, Hannah, and Mary - where the works we do could potentially change history - but the greatest work we will do will first begin with submission to our husband/father figure in our life, and through that submission God will be able to use us mightily in His kingdom.

We are the weaker vessel, we were created out of man, and we need man as our covering and protection. Men were designed, and created of God to be leaders, to go out in battle, and fight wars, and protect their families, and women have taught, prayed, encouraged, and been keepers of the home. That is where our greatest blessings will lie, if we choose to follow God's ways.

It is a chunk to swallow, ladies, and it took me a while to see and understand this. But remember this. As Christ is the head of the church, the man is the head of the woman. And Christ is NOT a dictator. He does not demand anything. He loves us, and through that love, we grow and learn, and become all He desires us to be. As Christ loves the church, a husband loves his wife, cherishes her and protects her, and through our husband’s love and protection, we be used of God us in mighty and wonderful ways.

A husband is not meant to be a dictator, not at all. Again, Christ is not a dictator. But a husband will love, encourage, listen and support his wife, and they will work together as a team. Someone has to make the final decision, and that is the man's place. We are not to be servants or door rags for men to stomp their feet on. Not at all. There is a loving relationship that takes place where each one complements the other, and through that kind of a relationship, the work of God will indeed flourish.

I have seen too many times where women sought to control churches through their husbands, or even really were the pastors. And confusion reigned in terrible, terrible ways. I am sure most of you can also relate.

I look at Sis. Alvear, and her sweet humble spirit. I see a woman who is operating in submission to her husband, working as a team with him, and what a great and mighty work is being done through their lives. I hold that up as a shining example today of how true ministry with women really works.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I like it when people don't have a logical answer so they resort to sarcasm. Reveals the intellect, or lack thereof.

The answer is very plain and simple. Just follow the bible and the bible says that a bishop must be the husband of one wife. Many here don't like that direct and unapologetic message so they began massaging the passage, molding it, changing it to eventually say a bishop may, or may not, be the husband of one wife and can be the wife of one husband or maybe not be a wife or husband at all.

The basic fact that's not what it says doesn't deter them. The goal is to rewrite scripture to have scripture agree with them, not them agreeing with scripture. In other words, they want to be what the wish to be, do what they wish to do, live like they wish to live without the word of God interfering in their lives.

The rewriting of scripture reveals the spiritual intellect, or lack thereof, of individuals who simply cannot or will not live by God and His word.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I haven't read through every single post on this thread, but did read most. My question is this. Why did Jesus not pick any women to be his disciples?

And I've heard the question answered in this way - that this was before the cross, and before the new dispensation of grace. However then, why did the apostles again consider two men to take Jesus' place?

Also, why are there no women elders mentioned anywhere in the NT? We know that Phoebe was a servant or a minister of some kind, according to various translations. But no mention at all of her being an "elder", or a bishop.

Personally, after much careful study of the Word, what I find seems to be this. Women have a ministry and can definitely be used in many ways to minister to others. However, when it comes to taking any kind of authority over a man, that is overstepping their boundaries that have been set up since Adam and Eve. The Bible does teach that women can teach, preach, evangelize, and minister in whatever way they can. But when it involves taking authority over a man, I do not believe that is a woman's place.

When I look at scripture, and see the examples of the wonderful women of the Bible, to name a few would be Esther (submitted to Mordecai), Hannah (submitted to her husband, and the priest), Mary the mother of Jesus (submitted to her husband Joseph). These women are known down through the ages of time because of the great role they played in the history of Israel, but they WERE submitted to their husbands/father figure.

However, when you look at some other examples, let's take Miriam for one. She and Aaron felt that Moses wasn't doing a good enough job and began to murmur against him, wanting to do things their way. What happened? God struck Miriam with leprosy - not Aaron - although Aaron was right in there with her… yet… God chose to deal with Miriam's rebellion - why? I've always wondered why Aaron didn't have to receive punishment as well. I think it is because God was making a point that the power a women has with her words, and the grievous effects, and outcomes of it, first began in the garden and have to be dealt with severely.

Male and female were created differently. Women was taken from man. It is a fact that galls women every day. Somehow we would like to believe it was different that we are created equal, but we're not. And that's the plain truth of the matter. There is a difference, and men were meant for, and created for leadership, women were not. We were created to be helpmeets for our husbands, we were taken out of man's side, and not created separately.

This is a galling statement, my dear women readers, and believe me, I have studied long and hard about the matter. This issue hits close to home, as I have a female family member who is an ordained minister of the UPC. She performs weddings, burials, and oversees a church camp. She is one of the most humble women I know, and she has no husband.

Looking again at other women in the Bible who were known for trouble, that would have to include Jezebel. A Jezebel is known as a women who rises up against her husband, and begins to take authority that doesn't belong to her, and terrible, terrible things take place, as with the first Jezebel, and then the one mentioned in Revelation. Terrible things took place because they were not acting in submission, and humility. No great testimony emerges from their lives!

I look at submission as a safety net, a protection, and a covering from God for women. It is a beautiful thing to see it in action. Look at Esther's life. Look at her submission to Mordecai. Look what great, and wonderful things took place because she obeyed!
Look at Hannah's life. Because of her submission to her husband, also to the priest, and obedience, God took that and used her son to be one of the greatest prophets to walk this earth.

In looking at this issue from a biblical standpoint, using the examples laid out above, I see women in ministry doing wonderful things for the Lord...

BUT I can't find ONE.SINGLE.EXAMPLE of a woman taking authority over a man, and God being pleased with it, blessing it, and making an example out of it for all women to follow.... (and Deborah didn’t take the authority, the man Barach, didn’t want it, although she offered it first to him…)

If someone could provide such an example, that would be awesome.... I would love to hear it.

So… this is why Jesus did NOT choose any women to be his disciples, although there were plenty of women hanging around him on a regular basis. In fact the Mary's seemed to be with him just about everywhere he went and were certainly there during his death and resurrection.

Women, we do have a place in ministry. That is so clear, looking at the examples of Esther, Hannah, and Mary - where the works we do could potentially change history - but the greatest work we will do will first begin with submission to our husband/father figure in our life, and through that submission God will be able to use us mightily in His kingdom.

We are the weaker vessel, we were created out of man, and we need man as our covering and protection. Men were designed, and created of God to be leaders, to go out in battle, and fight wars, and protect their families, and women have taught, prayed, encouraged, and been keepers of the home. That is where our greatest blessings will lie, if we choose to follow God's ways.

It is a chunk to swallow, ladies, and it took me a while to see and understand this. But remember this. As Christ is the head of the church, the man is the head of the woman. And Christ is NOT a dictator. He does not demand anything. He loves us, and through that love, we grow and learn, and become all He desires us to be. As Christ loves the church, a husband loves his wife, cherishes her and protects her, and through our husband’s love and protection, we be used of God us in mighty and wonderful ways.

A husband is not meant to be a dictator, not at all. Again, Christ is not a dictator. But a husband will love, encourage, listen and support his wife, and they will work together as a team. Someone has to make the final decision, and that is the man's place. We are not to be servants or door rags for men to stomp their feet on. Not at all. There is a loving relationship that takes place where each one complements the other, and through that kind of a relationship, the work of God will indeed flourish.

I have seen too many times where women sought to control churches through their husbands, or even really were the pastors. And confusion reigned in terrible, terrible ways. I am sure most of you can also relate.

I look at Sis. Alvear, and her sweet humble spirit. I see a woman who is operating in submission to her husband, working as a team with him, and what a great and mighty work is being done through their lives. I hold that up as a shining example today of how true ministry with women really works.

You answered your 90% of your own questions in your first sentence when you said you hadn't read all the posts where 90% of your questions were answered but here is a nice answer I like about it from Betty Miller.

If Jesus wanted women to minister, how come all His disciples were men? This question is actually raised from a misunderstanding of the word "disciple." Jesus had many women disciples. These include, Mary and Martha (John 11:1-4, and many other references as well. Mary and Martha, along with their brother Lazarus were among Jesus' closest friends). In addition, Jesus had many other women followers as well.

Luke 8:1-3, "And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and showing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance."

For the sake of brevity, I will not include other lists of names of women who followed Him. However the Scripture makes it clear there were many of them.

In another incident, Jesus motions to the crowds that followed him and said, "Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matthew 12:49-50).

In John 4:1-42, we see that it is a Samaritan woman who leads a large population of her community to Jesus.

Why didn't Jesus choose any women to be among His twelve original apostles? Jesus could not choose women to be among the twelve because it would not be wisdom for men and women to be traveling about together when many of them were single. Also, the twelve apostles fulfilled the "type and shadow" of the twelve patriarchs, so they had to be equal to men (Revelation 21:12, 14). However, this doesn't mean that he does not anoint women to fill an apostolic role today, as was established in the case of Junia.

Jesus showed a great deal of respect for women--and children as well. In the culture of Jesus' day, these were often deemed "lower class" so to speak, and not worth paying serious attention to. However, Jesus repeatedly broke this unspoken rule. Because His actions were so unusual, those closest to Him were often surprised and annoyed.

It has always been a strange doctrine that will allow women to go to foreign mission fields and teach heathen men, but will not allow the "heathen" men at home to be taught by the same women! It makes absolutely no sense to think that a female who is learned in the Scriptures cannot teach a male who is unlearned. Additionally, it is acceptable for many women to teach Sunday School to children, and for mothers to teach their sons. Where do we draw the line and say to the women that can no longer teach a male once they reach a certain age? This may seem like a ridiculous scenario, yet there are those in the church who teach along these lines.

Those that are dogmatic in excluding women from the ministries of God usually are not walking in the Spirit, as they see women after the flesh (viewing her sex), not after the Spirit (seeing her heart and calling). The Lord admonishes us in His Word that we are not to look at one another with regard to our sex, race, class or culture, but rather we are to see one another through spiritual eyes.

"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation: To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2 Corinthians 5:16-20).

God wants to use any person who will yield to His Spirit, regardless of that person's sex or capabilities. Those who are a new creature in Christ have His capabilities.

Our problem is that we must see there are rules for the fleshly, or earthly man, and there are rules for the spiritual man. Then, we must discern when to apply the appropriate Scripture. We are admonished in 2 Timothy 2:15 to "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

[Titus2woman]

When you start to talk about sinning women in the bible every sin of every man recorded there comes to my mind as well as the local UPCI pastor who a few years back lost his church when it was discovered that he was sleeping with at least three married women he pastored... having lured them into his bed under the guise of 'counseling' them... He holds license to this day.

So I am not seeing how that fits with honest honorable women pastoring at all. Please do tell...

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

When you start to talk about sinning women in the bible every sin of every man recorded there comes to my mind as well as the local UPCI pastor who a few years back lost his church when it was discovered that he was sleeping with at least three married women he pastored... having lured them into his bed under the guise of 'counseling' them... He holds license to this day and has a church having remarried and moved out of state.

So I am not seeing how that fits with honest honorable women pastoring at all. Please do tell...

It's not about women being, or not being, honest and honorable, it's about God's instructions. His instructions says....

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

If a pastorate puts a woman in authority over a man, it's not to be.

Time for a rewrite?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I thought it was a pretty good comparison. Nomenclature in King James' era used the masculine quite often to refer to all "mankind". Which includes women by the way, even though the term is "man"kind.

But, that logic may be too much for your limited viewpoint.

This isn't about mankind, it's about a bishop being a husband. If you believe marriage is between a man and woman, a husband is always, without exception, male. A bishop is to be a male, according to the requirements for a bishop.

[The Matt]

Should women stay silent in churches?

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by seekerman

It's not about women being, or not being, honest and honorable, it's about God's instructions. His instructions says....

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

If a pastorate puts a woman in authority over a man, it's not to be.

Time for a rewrite?

Seekerman you are obviously not reading anyone's posts but your own and are so anxious to try to make a point rather than actually learn something that I am starting to believe that you must be very young and/or immature. Actually I am beyond believing that you are genuine as you have addressed not a word that anyone has said.

It is not so much time for a re-write as for clear understanding of the scripute you just quoted which would make Paul a bumbling mealy mouthed idiot if it actually asserts what you seem to think it does since he had just gone on before about a woman covering her head... when?... oh now you remember! When she prays or prophecies...Yeah, that little thing that is so hard to do while one is being... silent???

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by The Matt

Should women stay silent in churches?

NO. Nothing against you Matt but it has been decades since I have met a man in person that had the kind of level of insecurity required to try to use these scriptures in the way I've seen them used here today... I guess I just did not even think that those men existed anymore... but now I find that there are throw backs to caveman days right on AFF... I am stunned and horrified!

Please, sweet Matt... never, ever, ever join their ranks. They are small minded little men who certainly will be twice divorced before they learn that there is no greek or jew, bond or fee, male or female in the eyes of God