Everybody must have a pastor?

[Esaias]

Hey, I'm not trying to argue one way or another, I'm just asking questions, is all...

[good samaritan]

Joshua had to be led and groomed as well as called to lead. There comes a time when people are sent depending on their calling it may be to another location or may just be a change in the local venue. Just because Timothy left Paul's side on the ministry journey didn't mean that he ceased being his pastor. I don't talk to my last pastor real often but that doesn't change my view of him. If he ever calls me up with godly direction I take heed. I also value the body entirely.

E. how would define the role of a pastor and how it is to operate?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Joshua had to be led and groomed as well as called to lead. There comes a time when people are sent depending on their calling it may be to another location or may just be a change in the local venue. Just because Timothy left Paul's side on the ministry journey didn't mean that he ceased being his pastor. I don't talk to my last pastor real often but that doesn't change my view of him. If he ever calls me up with godly direction I take heed. I also value the body entirely.

E. how would define the role of a pastor and how it is to operate?

Pastors are part of the eldership and usually take part in the oversight of the local assembly. A pastor (shepherd) is one who 'teaches', because they 'feed the flock' with the Word, demonstrating it's truths by their examples of godly and faithful living. A local assembly may have several 'pastors', just as it may have several prophets, evangelists, etc.

Pastor is not an office in the assembly, it is a gift, it is how the Spirit operates through a particular individual for the benefit of the assembly. The offices are bishops (overseers) aka elders, and deacons (servants). An overseer (bishop or elder) charged with oversight may be a pastor. Or he may be a prophet. Or he may be an evangelist. Or he may be something else, depending on how the Spirit manifests through him (see 1 Cor 12-14, Romans 12, etc).

Nobody appoints or elects teachers, prophets, evangelists, etc. But, bishops and deacons are appointed. The two classes therefore are not synonymous. What most people call a 'pastor' I would call an elder or bishop/overseer, somebody with oversight of the local assembly.

And the ideal (depending on the situation) seems to be plural eldership in the local assembly.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

So Moses was Joshua's pastor, but who was Moses pastor?

How about Elijah? Who was his?

Hmmmmmmmmm

Are you saying you are more in the position of Moses than Joshua, and more like Elijah than Elisha?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I am not certain anyone here is arguing there is 'no authority in the church' or that there is no system of 'government' in the church. The question is 'what does it properly look like?'

Brother Blume, who is your pastor, and how does he pastor you?

I already stated in my first post that it is more of an issue of having some kind of covering of ministry over you than it is a pastor in every case.

[mfblume]

Paul was changed so much. He met the Lord on the road to Damascus while he was kicking against the pricks in his attacks against the church. He was so totally affected and changed by that experience, he submitted to a nobody named Ananias at Damascus. When a person is struck by meeting God's authority, it changes them and they become respectful and submissive. That's also how the brethren recommended he go to Tarsus after wreaking havoc by the way he preached in Jerusalem.

If we think it's obeying a man and not the authority of God in the person, then we missed it. We WILL throw the baby out with the bathwater in that case.

When John heard a voice calling to him while he was in the spirit on Patmos, Revelation 1 shows us the first thing he turned to see was the seven golden candlesticks, and Jesus was NEXT seen in its midst. When we're told what the candlesticks were, we learn they represented the seven churches. Jesus speaks through the church. And as KBTW already shared, he also wrote to the ANGEL of each church, which was a human leader.

People in the Spirit will recognize God's authority in a human being and submit to it. Again, it's not the person, but God's authority in the person.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

It is quite obvious through the scriptures, as you have shown plainly, that spiritual authority was part of the NT churches. There was a respect for elders, wives were to be subject to their husbands, and the governing ministerial gifts were to be subject one to another, as members all part of one body.

The reason the physical body is used as the example of how the church is to operate is very simple. The body has many different functions, hands, arms, feet, head, legs... and all are necessary to the proper function of the body. We have two feet that have to coordinate in order to walk. Such is the way the church was designed to operate.

There is an understanding that no one is "over" anyone, but yet, we are all subject to each other.. working together to accomplish the overall plan for the kingdom of the Lord.

Actually people can be OVER us.

Heb_13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Heb_13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

[mfblume]

David knew authority in a man, even in SAUL when Saul was evil.

1 Sam. 24.4-6 And the men of David said unto him, Behold, the day of which Jehovah said unto thee, Behold, I will deliver thine enemy into thy hand, and thou shalt do to him as it shall seem good unto thee. Then David arose, and cut off the skirt of Saul’s robe privily. And it came to pass afterward, that David’s heart smote him, because he had cut off Saul’s skirt. And he said unto his men, Jehovah forbid that I should do this thing unto my lord, Jehovah’s anointed, to put forth my hand against him, seeing he is Jehovah’s anointed.

Reminds me of Michael respecting satan.

1Sa 26:8-11 KJV Then said Abishai to David, God hath delivered thine enemy into thine hand this day: now therefore let me smite him, I pray thee, with the spear even to the earth at once, and I will not smite him the second time. (9) And David said to Abishai, Destroy him not: for who can stretch forth his hand against the LORD'S anointed, and be guiltless? (10) David said furthermore, As the LORD liveth, the LORD shall smite him; or his day shall come to die; or he shall descend into battle, and perish. (11) The LORD forbid that I should stretch forth mine hand against the LORD'S anointed: but, I pray thee, take thou now the spear that is at his bolster, and the cruse of water, and let us go.


2Sa 1:6 KJV And the young man that told him said, As I happened by chance upon mount Gilboa, behold, Saul leaned upon his spear; and, lo, the chariots and horsemen followed hard after him.

2Sa 1:10 KJV So I stood upon him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen: and I took the crown that was upon his head, and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them hither unto my lord.

2Sa 1:11-14 KJV Then David took hold on his clothes, and rent them; and likewise all the men that were with him: (12) And they mourned, and wept, and fasted until even, for Saul, and for Jonathan his son, and for the people of the LORD, and for the house of Israel; because they were fallen by the sword. (13) And David said unto the young man that told him, Whence art thou? And he answered, I am the son of a stranger, an Amalekite. (14) And David said unto him, How wast thou not afraid to stretch forth thine hand to destroy the LORD'S anointed?

Look at the respect David had for Saul when Saul was acting in evil.

[mfblume]

1Th 5:12-13 KJV And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; (13) And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Is this all but gone amongst many today in church? Can we think as the scriptures relate to us to think, when we say we're our own pastors?

1Co 16:15-16 KJV I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,) (16) That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.

1Ti 5:17 KJV Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Peter noted the same thing Jude did in angels respecting even the devil.

2Pe 2:10-11 KJV But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. (11) Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

The interesting thing is angels fell and even the unfallen angels respect since they do not want to get the same spirit of rebellion the devils got.

People can learn a lesson from this!

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Pastors are part of the eldership and usually take part in the oversight of the local assembly. A pastor (shepherd) is one who 'teaches', because they 'feed the flock' with the Word, demonstrating it's truths by their examples of godly and faithful living. A local assembly may have several 'pastors', just as it may have several prophets, evangelists, etc.

Pastor is not an office in the assembly, it is a gift, it is how the Spirit operates through a particular individual for the benefit of the assembly. The offices are bishops (overseers) aka elders, and deacons (servants). An overseer (bishop or elder) charged with oversight may be a pastor. Or he may be a prophet. Or he may be an evangelist. Or he may be something else, depending on how the Spirit manifests through him (see 1 Cor 12-14, Romans 12, etc).

Nobody appoints or elects teachers, prophets, evangelists, etc. But, bishops and deacons are appointed. The two classes therefore are not synonymous. What most people call a 'pastor' I would call an elder or bishop/overseer, somebody with oversight of the local assembly.

And the ideal (depending on the situation) seems to be plural eldership in the local assembly.