Those who never heard about Jesus?

[mfblume]

Reincarnation is error:

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Job 14:10-12 But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he? As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up, so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.

Psalm 78:39 He remembered that they were but flesh, a wind that passes and comes not again.

Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Job 14:14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.

2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

John 3:1-36 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. ...

Job 7:9-10 As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up; he returns no more to his house, nor does his place know him anymore.

Job 16:22 For when a few years have come I shall go the way from which I shall not return.

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Job 10:21 Before I go—and I shall not return— to the land of darkness and deep shadow,

2 Corinthians 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

John 9:1-3 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Luke 1:17 And he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”

2 Samuel 14:14 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

"Know ye not"? What do you mean, Paul? Know? You said if we think we KNOW anything, we really don't know anything at all. We cannot KNOW we were baptized into Jesus' death, because you said we cannot know anything, and it's worse if we think we do!

...when you demonstrate that you do not know, yes. I do not know, and do not profess to know, but good fruit comes from good trees

[shazeep]

you "know" that reincarnation is error; yet here i am, reading about those reincarnated in Scripture...so, i don't know. Scripture commands us not to teach reincarnation, so i wouldn't, but Scripture also commands us to be humble, and so i avoid perspectives that lead me to...an illusion of certainty.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is the SPIRIT of Elijah, not actually Elijah. The bible says it is appointed unto man once to die.

Luke 1:17 KJV And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Could one argue that your spirit is not actually an aspect of you? Would one argue that God's Spirit not actually God? Of course not. Let me lay this one down.

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

God promised to send, "Elijah the prophet". Either God was true to his word and actually sent, "Elijah the prophet", or he lied. Did God send, "Elijah the prophet", as he promised? This alone will dictate how every other verse on this topic is to be properly interpreted.

The Scripture states that it is appointed unto every living man once to die. But what then? The judgment. And what then? This doesn't deny the possibility of reincarnation. Even those who embrace reincarnation believe that every man (reincarnated or not) must die, face a judgment of sorts, and perhaps even be born once more as a different person who is also appointed to die.

Again, it is a matter of interpretation.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not by being born as a baby and growing up.

They believe he will actually appear - the very same person. Fully grown and an adult like he left. Not born from a second womb and grow. Man, we can make the bible say anything if we take that reasoning you are displaying.

Exactly, and their notion was, and still is, error. Jesus corrected that notion when he explained the following.

Matthew 17:12-14
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Jesus explained that Elias (Elijah) had already come, and yet they didn't know him, and executed him. This was contrary to popular Jewish thought. It is even contrary to current Jewish thought today. So, are we to believe that Elijah will return as a full grown man, or are we to believe that Elijah was indeed sent as John the Baptist (reincarnation) as Jesus states?

Luke 1:17 KJV And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Yes. The man John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elias because, as Jesus stated, "Elias is come", just as God promised to send, "Elijah the prophet", in Malachi. John came in the spirit and power of Elijah because he was Elijah. However, it should be noted, not even John was consciously aware of this, typical of those who have experienced reincarnation.

John 1:21
And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

As you can see, not even John fully understood his identity. This is a great mystery that your tradition flat out ignores. John was indeed Elijah the prophet who had died hundreds of years earlier. However, he was not consciously aware of it. My friend, if that isn't stereotypical of reincarnation I don't know what is. Had John undergone a past life regression, he'd have become aware of who he was. But obviously we don't need a past life regression to see who John was, Jesus himself testifies that John was indeed Elijah. So, it is rather settled, even if it flies in the face of traditional orthodoxy.

And then you have this strange question from the disciples in relation to a blind man.

John 9:2
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Notice, the disciples wanted to know if this man sinned prior to his birth as a blind man, or if this man's malady was the result of his parent's sin. Now, many have tried and tried to dodge the clear implication of this question. Some have proposed that the disciples believed that it was possible to "sin" in the womb before birth. Some have proposed that perhaps the disciples thought it was possible to "sin" in Heaven before conception. Some have even proposed that perhaps the disciples thought that God could curse a man for sins known through foreknowledge. Given the issue with John the Baptist, I think it is rather reasonable to say that the disciples considered the possibility that this man was born blind on account of sins committed in a previous lifetime.

Then there are texts like these:

Revelation 3:12
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:

What does it mean to go to and fro from God's temple in Heaven?

So while the Bible gives no developed theological teaching about reincarnation, it is possible to say that shadows of reincarnation's reality can be seen in the Bible. Again, it is a matter of interpretation.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by shazeep

you "know" that reincarnation is error; yet here i am, reading about those reincarnated in Scripture...so, i don't know. Scripture commands us not to teach reincarnation, so i wouldn't, but Scripture also commands us to be humble, and so i avoid perspectives that lead me to...an illusion of certainty.

The idea of reincarnation isn't described in detail in the Scriptures. No solid doctrine or teaching concerning reincarnation in general can be produced. But one would be safe in saying that it appears that at least Elijah was reincarnated as John to accomplish the sovereign will of God. One can also say that it appears that there were notions about the possibility of one being born with a malady on account of sins committed in a past life.

Therefore, reincarnation would only be possible to accomplish a specific task relating to God's sovereign will. Perhaps on a case by case basis. There is nothing indicating that all souls are reincarnated as a general rule. The closest we come is this verse.

Mark 10:29-31
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

One is promised to receive an hundred fold of all that was sacrificed for Christ, "in this time" (in this age?). An hundred fold of houses, brethren, sisters, mothers, children, lands with their own individual trials, and in the world to come (age to come?) eternal life. That is either one super promise of restored abundance or it is a promise that can only be attained through many lives. Matthew's account is even more interesting.

Matthew 19:29
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Here we are promised an hundred fold increase in "wives" that we've had to forsake for Christ. This might just be a general promise of restoration, or perhaps, if taken literally, we are promised an hundred fold restoration of things that would take many lives to attain seeing that God's desire is life long monogamy.

But again, there is no specific teaching relating to reincarnation in general that we can speak to with certainty from the Holy Bible. Thus, to understand this divine truth, one would need to consult divine truths found in other faiths that do address reincarnation directly. Remember, the Bible is rather imperfect as are most sacred texts. There isn't a single religion that possesses absolute truth. However, all religions contain various divine truths that the spiritual seeker can search out and understand.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Reincarnation is error:

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Job 14:10-12 But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he? As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up, so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.

Psalm 78:39 He remembered that they were but flesh, a wind that passes and comes not again.

Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Job 14:14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.

2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

John 3:1-36 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. ...

Job 7:9-10 As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up; he returns no more to his house, nor does his place know him anymore.

Job 16:22 For when a few years have come I shall go the way from which I shall not return.

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Job 10:21 Before I go—and I shall not return— to the land of darkness and deep shadow,

2 Corinthians 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

John 9:1-3 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Luke 1:17 And he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”

2 Samuel 14:14 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

You're quoting a book that I believe has errors due to the cultural biases and languages of human filters, mistranslations, omissions, and additions. A Muslim would throw out verses from the Quran. A devout Hindu would throw out verses from the Upanishads. But these are all corrupted and altered texts.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Antipas

You're quoting a book that I believe has errors due to the cultural biases and languages of human filters, mistranslations, omissions, and additions. A Muslim would throw out verses from the Quran. A devout Hindu would throw out verses from the Upanishads. But these are all corrupted and altered texts.

How can someone possibly convince a person they're wrong, when they flat out refuse to accept the Word of God as the final authority?

I fear for your soul, Antipas. You've obviously allowed yourself to become deceived by the vain traditions of this world. Jesus is the only way to God. Period, full stop, end of story. If you fail to recognize and accept this, you'll find out personally that your beliefs have only led you to hell.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Jito463

How can someone possibly convince a person they're wrong, when they flat out refuse to accept the Word of God as the final authority?

I fear for your soul, Antipas. You've obviously allowed yourself to become deceived by the vain traditions of this world. Jesus is the only way to God. Period, full stop, end of story. If you fail to recognize and accept this, you'll find out personally that your beliefs have only led you to hell.

I am aware of many mythological expressions, misinterpretations, and contradictions in the Bible. While I believe that the Bible is "inspired", I do not set it on a pedestal of being inerrant or even complete. I see placing the Bible on such a pedestal as being close to idolatry. The only thing that is inerrant and without flaw is God himself. Obviously the Bible can't be the test of what is "Christian". After all, there are over 41,000 denominations of Christianity and even more interpretations of various doctrines. So, even if we were to say that the Bible is inerrant, obviously the inerrant text isn't easily understood. I settle with accepting the Bible as an inspired work filled with human limitations that are the natural outcome of truth being revealed to flawed human filters. I think this is by design. If the Bible were absolutely perfect.... we'd worship it. Acknowledging the Bible's flaws and limitations keeps us looking Godward for our ultimate salvation instead of gazing into a dusty book rife with errors and inconsistencies that barely anyone understands. Believers in it squabble over almost daily. Those who believe in the Bible's inerrancy seem to never agree on it anyway. They are a mess of confusion and debate. Any observer can only walk away shaking their head hoping Bible believers find God.

I do accept Jesus as being God incarnate. I accept Christ's work and teaching. However, I also believe that this same God has been manifest throughout history in various cultures and is the Source behind the core of most religions today. In other words, my Jesus is so much bigger than the small sectarian Jesus of one denomination of Christianity.

If over 41,000 divisions can exist within Christianity alone due to limited and imperfect human understandings, imagine the divisions and misunderstandings that could exist between vastly different cultures, languages, and geographic regions of the world. If such apparent differences can exist within one religion based on a single book, what apparent differences can be expected regarding a God who has spoken to the entire human race in various manners, expressions and manifestations?

It's almost like we're frightened little monkeys warning of the dangers and evils of other tribes that are just as afraid of us and think we are just as dangerous and evil. We have to evolve. We have to expand our understanding to see the greater reality.

I see it like this, there are five blind men who discover an elephant. Since the men have never encountered an elephant, they grope about, seeking to understand and describe this new phenomenon. One grasps the trunk and concludes it is a snake. Another explores one of the elephant's legs and describes it as a tree. A third finds the elephant's tail and announces that it is a rope. And the fourth blind man, after discovering the elephant's side, concludes that it is, after all, a wall. The fifth, after discovering his part of the elephant, announces that it must be two coconuts in a leather bag! LOL!

Each in his blindness is describing the same thing: an elephant. Yet each describes the same thing in a radically different way.

This is how we are with God. Each civilization has encountered God and experienced him in such a manner that is so radically different from how other civilizations have experienced him. And so we argue over rather God is like a snake, or a tree, or a rope, or a wall. We hear various revelations concerning the specific questions we have and argue over the answers we've each received. For example, one culture that has never had any interest in past lives hasn't received any revelation concerning them. Yet another has had interest and questions concerning this phenomena and has therefore received much revelation on it. Now the two argue it out and even wage war! Over what? A simple self-centered misunderstanding. We are to love others as ourselves because God wants us to realize that we're not all that different. God wants us to love our enemies because in truth, we have no enemies. Humanity is a single family seeking the light of God and experiencing that light in innumerable ways. We would do well to share what we have all gained from God, would we not?

Could I be mistaken? Of course! No one is perfect and no one has a perfect understanding about the eternal things of God. Would God condemn me to an eternal blazing and fiery Hell forever without any hope of escape or reconciliation because I simply wanted to honor what I thought might be Him in action elsewhere? Really? How insecure could a deity be? lol

If mistaken, I would expect to be laughed at by God, but condemned to flames forever? I don't see it. Such is an insult to the high character, power, wisdom, love, holiness, and compassion of an all knowing, all powerful, omnipresent deity.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Antipas

You're quoting a book that I believe has errors due to the cultural biases and languages of human filters, mistranslations, omissions, and additions. A Muslim would throw out verses from the Quran. A devout Hindu would throw out verses from the Upanishads. But these are all corrupted and altered texts.

Thankfully though we have some internet guy on AFF named "Antipas" to sort it all out for us.