Are Trinitarians Saved?

[Strict Baptist]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I feel sorry for Strict Baptist trying to make sense out of the confusion in this thread.

I see why the Assemblies of God deemed the Oneness camp a cult based on much of the interaction and responses of this thread. Personally, it is amusing to think I in Oneness theology am somehow a pagan, but two people keep arguing over which is right on an issue not related to this thread in a diatribe of sorts! It makes me wonder if some have ever had the thought why some flee from Oneness Pentecostals because of the bickering and papal-like pronouncements over salvation while all repeating the same tired, hackneyed arguments among their disagreement! How strange to find near-universal condemnation of trinitarians as lost (who needs to cite the UPCI manual at this point since it seems the public opinion court has already ruled) while disagreeing with each other on that point AND an unrelated issue! Mind you, I have seen droves of Pentecostal hissy fits, but if this is how Oneness works, I apparently lost out on some of the biggest ones.

Horace the Latin poet might say, "Aut insanit homo est, aut versus facit!" "Either the man is mad, or is composing verses!" The trinitarian Pentecostals did not have this issue, fascinatingly, yet according to Oneness, they though generally dipped and tongues-talkers extraordinaire, are also lost. And, when a trinitarian comes along with questions, he is greeted with bickering and insinuations he is unenlightened while the Oneness proponents cannot agree among themselves on one of their key doctrines. Did I miss something in 21 years in mainline Pentecostalism, or did I miss a group who literally damns the mainline crowd while disagreeing among itself?

I can at least appreciate the Assemblies had an entire General Council session to find what Scripture declares (I John 5.6-9; II Timothy 2.15, 3.14-6; II Corinthians 13.14) rather than this. They rejected me outright yet at least some heard my objections to their doctrine.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Strict Baptist

I see why the Assemblies of God deemed the Oneness camp a cult based on much of the interaction and responses of this thread. Personally, it is amusing to think I in Oneness theology am somehow a pagan, but two people keep arguing over which is right on an issue not related to this thread in a diatribe of sorts!

This should actually make you see we are not really that monolithic and think for ourselves, thus sometimes coming to different conclusions.

It makes me wonder if some have ever had the thought why some flee from Oneness Pentecostals because of the bickering and papal-like pronouncements over salvation while all repeating the same tired, hackneyed arguments among their disagreement! How strange to find near-universal condemnation of trinitarians as lost (who needs to cite the UPCI manual at this point since it seems the public opinion court has already ruled) while disagreeing with each other on that point AND an unrelated issue! Mind you, I have seen droves of Pentecostal hissy fits, but if this is how Oneness works, I apparently lost out on some of the biggest ones.

Horace the Latin poet might say, "Aut insanit homo est, aut versus facit!" "Either the man is mad, or is composing verses!" The trinitarian Pentecostals did not have this issue, fascinatingly, yet according to Oneness, they though generally dipped and tongues-talkers extraordinaire, are also lost. And, when a trinitarian comes along with questions, he is greeted with bickering and insinuations he is unenlightened while the Oneness proponents cannot agree among themselves on one of their key doctrines.

Deny it though you may, Trinitarians cannot agree either.

Did I miss something in 21 years in mainline Pentecostalism, or did I miss a group who literally damns the mainline crowd while disagreeing among itself?

I can at least appreciate the Assemblies had an entire General Council session to find what Scripture declares (I John 5.6-9; II Timothy 2.15, 3.14-6; II Corinthians 13.14) rather than this. They rejected me outright yet at least some heard my objections to their doctrine.

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[Strict Baptist]

Originally Posted by Originalist

.

You still dodge the issue. Original thought is not a problem. The laughable thing is your raging on for pages and pages about an unrelated issue while I'm asking questions on YOUR teaching is frankly amusing, because on that point, you can only redirect from the fact you make Oneness believers look silly all while a supposed lost man is basically captive for you to address! We didn't air out these disagreements before unbelievers because we knew they would run. Proverbs 10.9; Ecclesiastes 5.3-7.

Does it show original thought or a quarrelsome spirit?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Strict Baptist

You still dodge the issue. Original thought is not a problem. The laughable thing is your raging on for pages and pages about an unrelated issue while I'm asking questions


You must not visit many discussion boards. Chasing rabbits ir pretty common.


on YOUR teaching is frankly amusing, because on that point, you can only redirect from the fact you make Oneness believers look silly all while a supposed lost man is basically captive for you to address! We didn't air out these disagreements before unbelievers because we knew they would run. Proverbs 10.9; Ecclesiastes 5.3-7.

Does it show original thought or a quarrelsome spirit?

You must also remember that some of the quarrelling was over whether or not Trinitarians ae saved. Naturally, some were saying Trinitarians are not saved based on the baptismal "formula" issue. If you were a little more perceptive, you'd appreciate the fact that I was actually saying we cannot say Trinitarians are not saved based on this issue.

[Strict Baptist]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

You are not looking for opinions, either.
You are just looking for a fight.

I'm an asker with questions who has purposefully avoided debating with with posters on this board because I want to know what your crowd thinks while some duked it out over baptism! Proverbs 9.11.It is as if someone who thinks for himself is welcome so long as he thinks along your established train of thought. Galatians 5. What point is there in asking questions with your ilk beating each other up while accusing or else excusing me?! What a mess! Proverbs 23.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Strict Baptist

If I understand partialism aright, the Oneness view of the divinity is that Jesus is the one deity who manifests as Father, Word or Son and the Sacred Spirit. The analogy of a father who is simultaneously a son and a husband incorrectly by some imprecise Trinitarians is a description of modalism. However, none of these dimensions can simultaneously manifest; it is a modification of the fourth and fifth century excommunicated Nœtians, Sabellians, Praxeans and the beliefs of Theodoret (190 AD). Thus, it is obviously not the classic doctrine of the sacred triad, who like the musical term (though a poor reflection of it) are three subsistences in one indivisible person, equal in power and glory, identical in essence. Oneness denies this subsistency.

Herein lies the question -- do Oneness believers think Trinitarians are Christians or do they adhere to the thought of the UPCI manual that we are lost? Interestingly, that question was asked by Dr Martin in the 1985 Oneness debate on the Ankenberg show. If memory serves, Dr Urshan answered God knew who is lost, but Martin (who I don't endorse) indicated he, who was then the UPCI General Superintendent, had copped out on UPCI literature. What do you think?

1)Many oneness people would affirm that trinitarians are saved (or at least some, of course there is an epidemic of false conversion in the modern American church).

2)That said, the majority of oneness pentecostals would deny trinitarians are saved. Typically the more conservative OPs would have this view. But they tend to condemn everyone, including fellow oneness believers, who are not as conservative as themselves, labelling them charismatics, compromisers, worldly, etc.

3)Trinitarians are kind enough to return the favor, i.e. misrepresent what oneness people believe, label them all heretics, and condemn them to hell. I do admit to getting sick of trinitarians whining over the meany oneness people, when ya'll are mostly completely disingenuous about what oneness people believe. Then if one of your own even suggests oneness people are part of the body of Christ (such as Michael Brown recently), they get thrashed.

4)Your summary of oneness beliefs is inaccurate, as is your statement of trinitarian beliefs "one indivisible person". Most trinitarians would reject that language in favor of "one being who is thrre persons" (James White)

5)The argument is really a pandering to the flesh on both sides. While we ought to seek truth, we get overly concerned with judging the salvation if other individuals, then rapidly millions of others, based on our understanding of theology proper. I don't think this is wise nor God glorifying.

The debate is necessary and fascinating. But condemning others, who have repented of their sins and trusted in Christ, who believe in the one true God, in the Lord Jesus Christ, His full humanity and diety, and the regeneration and indwelling of the Holy Spirit, seems to me, unnecessary.

It should be pointed out that both sides believes this, and this is a huge difference in having this conversation on a ineness board, vs a JW, Mormon, SDA, Christian Science, etc board.

1 John gives the tests of salvation, and both oneness and trinitarians meet that theological criteria.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I feel sorry for Strict Baptist trying to make sense out of the confusion in this thread.

I feel sorry for ANYONE trying to make sense out of much of anything on this entire forum.

[Praxeas]

My answers were ignored

[Praxeas]

During the years 2002-2007, leading Oneness Pentecostal and Trinitarian Pentecostal theologians engaged in a Oneness-Trinitarian Pentecostal dialogue sponsored by the Society for Pentecostal Studies. The final report that emerged from this dialogue was published in Pneuma: The Journal of the Society for Pentecostal Studies, volume 30, number 2 (2008). Copies of the journal can be obtained from www.sps-usa.org.

http://danielsegraves.blogspot.com/2...ntecostal.html

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

My answers were ignored

I read them.