Should we teach others to rebel against standards?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Ok go to 39:30 to 43:00 at (40:25, 70:58 also) and listen to what he says. We are not the only ones saying these things. This is a great message btw. He's speaking the truth.

Wow the assistant Pastor had a full beard and that WAS WRONG? And what chapter and verse did he use to prove his point?

This is the point. People are being taught that beards are an unholy thing. I'm sorry but this is the hypocrisy that is ruining souls. So the NORMAL APOSTOLIC has it in his mind whenever he sees someone with a beard the person is a sinner.

In one way I hate fighting this battle. On one hand I dont want to see a young believer like 1 0f the chosen hurt by things being said. He loves the Lord and loves his Church. Great.

On the other hand we are all affected by what the men in the pulpits say. And when the great majority of Preachers preach something so ludicrous other faiths notice.

Then when people in their groups ask questions about Oneness or Acts 2:38 their Preachers point them to videos or audios like this and rightly tell them along these lines:

"If these guys preach things as silly as this you KNOW FOR SURE not to take them serious about who Jesus is".

Thats why this fight in the end is worth doing. That there be no hinderance from people accepting Oneness truth over mens own vain traditions, especially when fighting against a landmark Jesus himself made.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Wow the assistant Pastor had a full beard and that WAS WRONG? And what chapter and verse did he use to prove his point?

This is the point. People are being taught that beards are an unholy thing. I'm sorry but this is the hypocrisy that is ruining souls. So the NORMAL APOSTOLIC has it in his mind whenever he sees someone with a beard the person is a sinner.

In one way I hate fighting this battle. On one hand I dont want to see a young believer like 1 0f the chosen hurt by things being said. He loves the Lord and loves his Church. Great.

On the other hand we are all affected by what the men in the pulpits say. And when the great majority of Preachers preach something so ludicrous other faiths notice.

Then when people in their groups ask questions about Oneness or Acts 2:38 their Preachers point them to videos or audios like this and rightly tell them along these lines:

"If these guys preach things as silly as this you KNOW FOR SURE not to take them serious about who Jesus is".

Thats why this fight in the end is worth doing. That there be no hinderance from people accepting truth over mens own vain traditions, especially when fighting against a landmark Jesus himself made.

Who will pay for the souls that were deterred from finding the narrow way and were lost... over such a tradition of men? And when the Devil starts using such a man made tradition to discourage souls from entering into the kingdom, it becomes a doctrine of devils.

Who will pay for the souls lost over such a silly tradition of man? What will be their judgment?

James 3:1 English Standard Version (ESV)
3 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

[Aquila]

You know, the more one looks at Scripture and then looks at the current landscape of churches, it isn't hard to come to the realization that the gate is more straight, and the way even more narrow, than had previously been thought. For by departing from the Holy Scriptures many Apostolic pastors have become blind teachers of the blind, sepulchers filled with dead men's bones, who love the traditions of man over the Word of God.

[Sister Alvear]

I really don't think rebellion is the answer...if I did not agree I would go look for another church...Why be a troublemaker?

[Sister Alvear]

At our camp I spoke on "the gift of mercy" . not really one of the 9 gifts but a GIFT that God gave me...I told many instances about mercy....Maybe a lacking thing among many people...and even among many of our people....We as humans are so forgetful where God brought us from...and we are so quick to judge others...May God help me...to see as He does and feel what He feels...

[Michael The Disciple]

Apostolic Church members!

Flee from that man Jesus! We dont care what anyone preaches! You cant run with men like that! We know by the "facial hair"...full beard on his face we DONT WANT HIM hanging around with our people!

And those 12 apostles? Jewish men called by Christ to be with him. Beware! Just because your Pastor tells you they are OK we know that Jewish men WORE BEARDS! Flee from them to save your souls from Hell!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

At our camp I spoke on "the gift of mercy" . not really one of the 9 gifts but a GIFT that God gave me...I told many instances about mercy....Maybe a lacking thing among many people...and even among many of our people....We as humans are so forgetful where God brought us from...and we are so quick to judge others...May God help me...to see as He does and feel what He feels...

Yes Sister I think you are right. We need mercy and kindness. I dont know what relationship Jonathan Alvear is to you. I am sorry for your sake to be using him as an example in this battle. This is the first I remember hearing of him.

Nonetheless he sounds the same IN THIS ISSUE as most Apostolic Preachers. So it is not personal but he represents the rest. And please believe me I dont want to hurt you or anyone concerning this.

I do think there are good godly men who are truly in touch with God that are off on this issue. They are raised hearing such a doctrine everywhere they go until it becomes their own. When the Lord is trying to correct them the voices of other men are to loud, drowning out the voice of the Lord.

If not corrected somewhere down the line something that should not even be a matter of contention becomes a great mountain in the search for truth.

But I know you know this. Peace and love.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Until we can get back to the Bible, we'll never know will we?

Bro, if I had a dollar for every joker who ever said the above I'd be rich. Bro, all you guys say the same thing but have totally different results. But, that never hinders you. You keep saying it thinking someone is going to believe you. Seriously, anyone who can't figure out whether to drink Jack Daniels,eat Corn Flakes in the nude, or curse occasionally, can't be serious about separation unto God.

Originally Posted by Aquila

What I do know is this... I've been out of the institutional churches of Apostolic Christianity since 2008.

So, what. That doesn't mean anything to anyone. That's YOUR experience, not mine. Some of you guys talk about Apostolic Churches like you had Pinhead as a pastor and the church was called First Church of Hellraiser 4.
Some stories are so gothically morbid it is more shocking that the teller isn't embarrassed.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've spent that time worshipping alone in exile,

Now you are the man in the Iron Mask?

Originally Posted by Aquila

worshipping with brethren in various churches on occasion, worshipping with brethren who felt disenfranchised,

Sadly misery does love company. Yet, I really don't think that is entirely the case in those situations. It is more like wound licking. Where no one moves up and over their past, but wades around in the mire. Up to their necks in ecclesiastical poison. Always waiting for an opportunity to bleed all over the place, while pointing their finger at everyone or anything which reminds them of their past. The past in whatever religion which didn't fulfil their needs. It becomes a whipping boy, which is marched out in front of the other disgruntles and beaten when they all are feeling bad about their past.

Disenfranchised?

Sounds like what they started in the flesh is ending up in the flesh.

No relationship with Jesus Christ to begin with, will just leave your only company to be your regret.

Originally Posted by Aquila

and even worshipping with non-Apostolics... and I'm still Apostolic.

That sounds confusing.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I firmly believe in Oneness and Acts 2:38 salvation.

So, does the devil. Only difference is, that he trembles.

Originally Posted by Aquila

That's ten years. The only things that have fallen to the wayside in my life are the specific standards that are not taught in Scripture.

Bro, I was raised around people who debated the Bible away. Debated the Catholic Church to have lost their pope in 1953. Bro, you can take that Bible and make it go with whatever agenda you deem to be flowing with at the time. We may not believe you, but you won't care. You will believe you, and isn't that what really matters to you? Standards? I have no problems with standards of dress, that is because "I" understand them. The people I attend church with, understand them. But, guess what, you don't go to church here, and that is totally fine. You go do whatever you want, you can believe what ever you want to believe. Just don't push your trip on me, and expect me to submit, and I won't push my trip on you expecting you to submit.

Originally Posted by Aquila

In a very real sense, throughout these ten years, all I've had to lean on are the words of Jesus, the Psalms of David, and the teachings of Paul. I pray three times a day, speak in tongues every day, and I still believe in and experience the gifts regularly.

This means what? There is a plethora of people who believe in 50 million different views of one Bible doing the same thing? Bro, it just comes down to drama. It appeals to emotions, and tugs at the emotional. Bro, I can sit here and cry you a river, and you know what? In a 100 years it still won't get the job done. Hey, you think walking around naked is cool, it must be rough doing the yard work like that, but as long as you don't live near me. Do as you very well please.

Originally Posted by Aquila

And though I've been out of the institutional Apostolic churches for 10 years...

Bro, and it shows.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I have good friends and family in them. I've watched. I've watched as people have fallen away, become disenchanted, etc... and I normally don't see them keep the faith for 6 months after they disappear from the pews.

Here we go again with the stories of Pastor Pinhead and the First Church of Hellraiser 3. It is like you are hitting yourself with a flailing whip as you post these things? I mean, get over it already, these are your personal experiences in situations which we don't know the whole story. So we just get your slanted skewed view. Did the preacher burn you with lit cigarettes?
Seriously? Bro, we don't have the full story of your shocking ecclesiastical past.

Originally Posted by Aquila

And, lastly, the only thing that makes atheists smile is when people who say they believe the Bible feel the need to not obey it or add to it. Because the atheist reasons that if it were indeed the Word of God, we'd obey it and not have the need to add to it.

No, Atheists smile when people say they had an awful time in their particular religion, and still remain in that religion.

Believe me, I've seen it.

[Sister Alvear]

[QUOTE=Michael The Disciple;1526478]Yes Sister I think you are right. We need mercy and kindness. I dont know what relationship Jonathan Alvear is to you. I am sorry for your sake to be using him as an example in this battle. This is the first I remember hearing of him.

Nonetheless he sounds the same IN THIS ISSUE as most Apostolic Preachers. So it is not personal but he represents the rest. And please believe me I dont want to hurt you or anyone concerning this.

I do think there are good godly men who are truly in touch with God that are off on this issue. They are raised hearing such a doctrine everywhere they go until it becomes their own. When the Lord is trying to correct them the voices of other men are to loud, drowning out the voice of the Lord.

If not corrected somewhere down the line something that should not even be a matter of contention becomes a great mountain in the search for truth.

But I know you know this. Peace and love.[/QUOTEOh no you are not hurting me...I value everyone's opinion...I like to try to understand where everyone is coming from...all is well my friend.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Ok go to 39:30 to 43:00 at (40:25, 70:58 also) and listen to what he says. We are not the only ones saying these things. This is a great message btw. He's speaking the truth.

Brother Jonathan Alvear is one of my favorite preachers. I love the way he preaches with conviction. He is very knowledgeable of the Bible. He is, in this particular case absolutely wrong.

He is wrong historically, because old-time Pentecostal preachers typically wore beards. There have been many examples of the patriarchs of Pentecost wearing beards. Is there any question that he was wrong historically?

He is wrong scripturarally. As Michael has said, he did not quote any scripture to support the standard of being clean-shaven. The man-made standard of being clean-shaven is not supported by any scripture. In this wise it is like a lot of man-made standards in that the scripture very often undermines the standard. Sis. Alvear, Michael, Aquila, and myself have pointed out that this is the case with the beard prohibition.

I'd like to make a point about false doctrine or standards that are extra-biblical. When preachers cannot reference the Bible to support their position, they will nearly always quote other preachers. This is what 1ofthechosen did in this case. He found a preacher that agreed with his viewpoint and posted an audio of him saying what he wanted to say. It seems that if you can't quote Bible, you do the next best thing (in our eyes) and quote a preacher, preferably one who is well respected. In my opinion, this borders on idolatry, I am sure there will be some who will be happy to be indignant towards me for saying so. Aquila has referred several times to us adding to the Bible. He is right. Do we believe that the Bible is insufficient? Are we so wise in our own eyes that we believe we have a better idea? We are to be very careful about adding to or diminishing from the words of God.

Deut.4
[2] Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

People who are tempted to add to or subtract from the words of God (Have we not all been guilty of this at one time or another?), should probably examine their own heart and try to find the reason why they so badly want to change the words of God.

I respect Bro. Jonathan Alvear a lot, and I'm sure he had a lot of good things to say in this sermon, however he is teaching the tradition of men in this case. God's word is still supreme, even if I would be tempted to believe Bro. Alvear, I draw the line when he contradicts the Bible.