UPC, ALJC, PAW, etc.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by diakonos

I had a pastor that said he ought to be able to enter anyone’s home to inspect for a tv.

I've heard that kind of thing too. But most pastors are being tongue in cheek when they say it. lol

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Why do we need a manual when we have the Bible?

Heresy! Take it back!

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by derAlte

It has been my observation over the years that discipling folks is a process that for some, can take many years. Most churches worth their salt have people in all sorts of different places in their walk with God. The only thing that will cause the internalization of a Biblical holiness lifestyle is exposure to the Word of God. One cannot force feed steak down a baby's throat without killing it.

If folks live conservative holiness standards out of fear of the pastor or the disapproval of the congregation, then they are simply conforming and not believing. It's just an empty show. A patient, faithful, loving and longsuffering pastor, through steady preaching and teaching can make a real difference in people's lives. But it takes time.

Many blowhards have gotten in pulpits and destroyed the future of countless spiritual babies, when time and gentleness and repeated exposure to the inspired truth of the Word of God would have eventually won them over. Don't get me wrong, there is always a time and place for straight and true preaching done with love and longsuffering. But some of these blowhards are more interested in bragging to their buddies how they worked the congregation over. For some, it is their fallen human nature manifesting itself. They are naturally mean and vicious people who enjoy verbally beating someone up and think because they are preaching, it is OK. In some circles, this is encouraged. Some of these guys genuinely think they are doing God a service but are actually unwisely using the Word to kill instead of build up.

Maybe it's the part of the country where I live, but pastors here are no more able to "force" folks to live conservative holiness standards than the man in the moon. I'm told folks were more "obedient" in the past. Times have changed and it ain't that way now.

What I'm trying to get across here is that just because a congregation may not be 100% in compliance with what the pastor stands for doesn't mean he's not doing his job. Cut the poor man some slack and give him the time he needs to work with people. Some folks will never comply and good churches usually have a mixed multitude of people hanging around for whatever reason. But as the pastor obeys and follows the leading of the Holy Ghost, he may just get some folks to willingly come around to living a Biblical lifestyle.

Amen. Most who criticize pastors have no idea what it takes to pastor. I agree, there are abusive pastors. But I think most pastors are doing their best. They are only flesh and blood like the rest of us.

You mentioned something I had a pastor mention to me. You wrote...

I'm told folks were more "obedient" in the past. Times have changed and it ain't that way now.

The pastor who I was talking to mentioned this. However, he was really understanding. He said that "past generations" tended to believe what you told them and trusted that the pastor was God's man. And so, they were more obedient in a sense. However, more recent generations have grown up with charlatan televangelists, fakes, frauds, and cults. They crave authenticity, are less trusting and want firm biblical grounds for a directive, and become greatly troubled when given a directive without a reason they can wrap their heads around. He said that as troublesome as it might be, it's like a self-defense mindset. This can be especially troublesome for pastors and their families who have gotten used to more compliant generations. The pastor emphasized that while the message cannot change, perhaps the methods of delivery, and approach might have to differ. The most challenging task is getting people to embrace standards that are not explicitly spelled out in Scripture.

I'm not a pastor. I know my heart goes out to them. Their calling is not an easy one.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by n david

What is the Pastor supposed to do? Raid homes to check for TVs? Stake out theaters or pools to make sure congregants aren't breaking his rules?

Preach the Gospel.

They are supposed to preach against sin. Maintain a clean platform and leadership. You cant make someone live right but you sure can preach against sin and hold high standards for leadership in the church.

Raid homes? no but clearly define expectations.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Amen. Most who criticize pastors have no idea what it takes to pastor. I agree, there are abusive pastors. But I think most pastors are doing their best.

Originally Posted by Antipas

The pastor emphasized that while the message cannot change, perhaps the methods of delivery, and approach might have to differ.

Could not agree more with either of these statements.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Heresy! Take it back!

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

They are supposed to preach against sin. Maintain a clean platform and leadership. You cant make someone live right but you sure can preach against sin and hold high standards for leadership in the church.

Raid homes? no but clearly define expectations.

For convenience's sake, let's say a pastor presents 10 sermons per month. In your estimation, how many of those sermons should incorporate "preaching against sin?"

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Ehud

For convenience's sake, let's say a pastor presents 10 sermons per month. In your estimation, how many of those sermons should incorporate "preaching against sin?"

I think your assuming a pastor just preaches for sport. It depends on what God desires to say to the church and what direction God wants to take the church.

The point is unless a stand is taken against sin, sin will be among the people. Whether its Hollywood or fornication or homosexuality or whatever. The pastor must sound the alarm and blow the trumpet to let the people understand that sin is not tolerated among the saints. All in a spirit of grace of course.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

They are supposed to preach against sin.

Most pastors, even those who aren't policing people's private lives, preach against sin.

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Maintain a clean platform

You're preaching to the choir here! I hate seeing a messy platform. Speaker, instrument and microphone wires running all over the place. Least you can do is get some fake plants and trees to hide things.

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

and leadership.

Proper hygiene is very important. Ministers should always carry a small pack of Altoids in their pocket so they can pop one in their mouth before praying with someone. I cannot stand a minister getting right up in my face with bad breath.

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

You cant make someone live right

Amen!

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

but you sure can preach against sin

Amen!

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

and hold high standards for leadership in the church.

Would to God it was real, Biblical holiness -- not the American Apostolic church dress version. So many Oneness Apostolic churches around the world have varying interpretations of what "holiness standards" are. The UPC in India allows women to wear pants because "it's their culture." But women in the US are splitting hell open for doing the same. Here in the USA, most churches allow black and hispanic men to wear facial hair because "it's their culture." But a white man can't do the same. Some churches are against short sleeve shirts on men. Some believe women must wear hose and their hair up. Some are against colored/print dress shirts on men. Some against rings, tie tacks/bars, etc.

Yet, we all agree on the oneness of the Godhead and the New Birth plan of salvation. You won't find UPC in one area believe one thing about the Godhead and another believe something else. You won't find ALJC in one area believe the New Birth and another ALJC believe something else.

It's only the extra stuff with which we find so much variance and different beliefs.

IMHO, stop majoring on the minors and start preaching the Gospel. You can't legislate holiness or Godliness. That's a work of God in the heart.

Thus saith and Amen.

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Raid homes? no but clearly define expectations.

Whose expectations?

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by n david

Most pastors, even those who aren't policing people's private lives, preach against sin.


You're preaching to the choir here! I hate seeing a messy platform. Speaker, instrument and microphone wires running all over the place. Least you can do is get some fake plants and trees to hide things.

Thats not what I meant by a "clean"platform
Proper hygiene is very important. Ministers should always carry a small pack of Altoids in their pocket so they can pop one in their mouth before praying with someone. I cannot stand a minister getting right up in my face with bad breath.

Thats not what I mean by "clean" leadership
Amen!


Amen!


Would to God it was real, Biblical holiness -- not the American Apostolic church dress version. So many Oneness Apostolic churches around the world have varying interpretations of what "holiness standards" are. The UPC in India allows women to wear pants because "it's their culture." But women in the US are splitting hell open for doing the same. Here in the USA, most churches allow black and hispanic men to wear facial hair because "it's their culture." But a white man can't do the same. Some churches are against short sleeve shirts on men. Some believe women must wear hose and their hair up. Some are against colored/print dress shirts on men. Some against rings, tie tacks/bars, etc.

Yet, we all agree on the oneness of the Godhead and the New Birth plan of salvation. You won't find UPC in one area believe one thing about the Godhead and another believe something else. You won't find ALJC in one area believe the New Birth and another ALJC believe something else.

It's only the extra stuff with which we find so much variance and different beliefs.

IMHO, stop majoring on the minors and start preaching the Gospel. You can't legislate holiness or Godliness. That's a work of God in the heart.

Thus saith and Amen.


Whose expectations?

the Pastor's expectations for leadership based on the bible