Do you hafta go through the pastor?

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

BTW, I am just funnin' with you tb.

I think you are a pleasant fellow to visit with.

I certainly value your contribution to this board.

Which is better?

A.) One blind man trying to drive a car
B.) One blind man trying to drive a car with a back seat full of other more experienced blind men?
C.) Same as option B. except the blind men in the backseat have formed an organization.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

We could whittle-whang around discussing the applications and boundaries of authority all day long, but to try and say it doesn't exist is to fly in the face of the Scripture.

As usual, you've made some good points, Brother. I am not too sure I have figured exactly what tbpew is saying, but I think what he's saying is that men do not have the authority God has in our lives, and the church has managed to somehow give the pastor that same authority. I have posted in favor of pastoral authority before, but I have yet to find out how far that authority extends, other than to say it does not extend beyond what's written in the Word.

With that said, I would be interested in your take on Paul and John the Baptist not following the conventional path into ministry. Thanks.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

It seems reasonable to assume that Paul or the elders in Corinth did "deliver such a one unto Satan." Why would he throw around such words if he didn't intend for it to happen?

As for me rebuking you in Jesus Name--that is at best a red herring, because there is no Scriptural precedent for rebuking a fellow Believer in that Name.

The Name is used to rebuke spirits.

As for how the man was delivered unto Satan, I believe they expelled the man from fellowship, and that there was very likely as utterance by one in spiritual authority doing exactly what Paul said to do.

I saw my pastor do this once with a couple who refused to repent of their fornication.

After reaching for them and counselling with them and exhausting every possible avenue, they brazenly contined in their sinful relationship and kept prancing into the services sitting together all lovey dovey.

One night, he finally got up, read I Corinthians 5, and explained that we had a couple who continued in sin after numerous admonitions.

He began to pray and ask the Lord to allow them to be delivered to Satan for a season until the affliction drove them to repentance.

He prayed that if it took car wrecks, affliction, trials or sickness, that they would be brought to repentance.

Two days later they were in a wreck--rolled their car several times and totalled it, but were not seriously injured.

They broke up their relationship, repented, and straightened up their lives.

The young man went to Bible College, and the young lady married a good man and is raising her children in the Church today.

Spiritual authority is a real thing, Brother.

As the Bard said, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreampt of in ytour philosophy."

I have heard of this sort of thing happening. I have a question for you, though. Who's authority caused them to have the accident? Was it the pastor's or God's?

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

The word "obey" is not that complicated.

You don't need a dictionary, a PhD, and a Mensa membership to know what it means.

You are overcomplicating a very simple passage.

I agree...*sigh*

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

We could whittle-whang around discussing the applications and boundaries of authority all day long, but to try and say it doesn't exist is to fly in the face of the Scripture.

this contribution from Coonskinner is in my estimation the most troubling of his posting so far in this thread.

To discuss authority without clearly delineating the boundaries and distinction of REALMS the boundaries mark, is a reckless and troublesome endeavor.

Apostolic authority (given by God to those who serve his purposes)is not some kind of universal, all encompassing, optionally deployable, mechanism available to folks who profess a calling from God to be RULERS over a subset of members of God's own body.

Every one of us are thankful when clear boundaries mark a changeover point in secular authorities dominon in various aspects of our lives. Easy to understand, certainly not a whittle-whang excercise.

If the mayor of your town comes into your house and says, "your wife will do the cooking for our local school", is it just whittle-whanging? Or would you say, "mayor, you are operating from an authority you do not have based on 'where you are standing, you have crossed over a boundary, you are out of place!"

If a policeman from Russia is on vacation in Pensylvania pulls me over for not having my seatbeats fastened, would we think it a silly whittle-whang matter involving boundaries? Afterall, doesn't AUTHORITY REALLY EXIST, are we flying in the face of this obvious condition pertaining to the Russian police officer?

If a school teacher, who is the Football coach, tells your Son that he will join the Football team or else it could impact his grade in English class....is this just whittle-whang silliness about the reality of boundaries and the application of authority?

Sorry Coon, for you to unbundle a discussion of authority from the applicable REALMS defined by boundaries is a regrettable, wide-open invitation for any number of over-reaching misapplications.

A king is ruler. A King has no aspect of his Kingdom that is not subject to his authority. The reason this is so is because of the force he has available to deliver a punitive sanction against the rebellous. Without such force, there is no authority. This should be the self-witnessing reality that there is no authority existing between members of the body of Christ; it is only between MEMBER and HEAD.

Without authority there certainly can be influence, particularly where a heart is open to consider the words of his guide who has consistently demonstrated wisdom and understanding. I have a scriptural admonition to qualify those who I would follow as guides (it would be foolish to do otherwise) Obviously such a reguirement is diametrically opposed to OBEYING a RULER placed over me.
Note: If this ruffles some feathers of folks sitting in Moses' seat, please consider the soul that sits in the pews of local Methodist church....should they OBEY their RULERS?

Sorry Coon, concerning member-to-member roles in the body of Christ, all you and I have is influence.

Concerning unclean spirits, evil spirits, infirmities, and seducing spirits, they are SUBJECT to our authority in the Kingdom of God.

If, as servants to our Lord, we apply our authority WHERE it has dominion, rather than crossing boundaries into REALMS pertaining to another member of his Body, peace will be served in our shared assembly.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Barb

I agree...*sigh*

Welcome back Barb.
I look forward to your perspective in regard to the setting questions I asked you yesterday.
But you do not have to hurry, I will be visiting a family until around noon.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Welcome back Barb.
I look forward to your perspective in regard to the setting questions I asked you yesterday.
But you do not have to hurry, I will be visiting a family until around noon.

Bro. Pew, I am going to try, but am right now trying to beat this sinus headache.

I do intend to come back here though as I feel this is a MUCH needed discussion and your questions noteworthy.

Not being a novice to the Church, I am a witness that many a soul as ended up shipwrecked because they either took too much authority on themselves or not enough.

By the same token, many a layperson has ended up in the same condition for either not adhering to the admonishments of those who give an account or asking for guidance before they bought groceries.

There is balance in all things...will attempt to expound later in my unlearned way...

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Rico

I have heard of this sort of thing happening. I have a question for you, though. Who's authority caused them to have the accident? Was it the pastor's or God's?

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

The word power there is the Greek word that means authority, not dunamis.

The only authority that exists really is God's authority.

A man can only operate under the authority of God as God allows.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by tbpew

this contribution from Coonskinner is in my estimation the most troubling of his posting so far in this thread.

To discuss authority without clearly delineating the boundaries and distinction of REALMS the boundaries mark, is a reckless and troublesome endeavor.

Apostolic authority (given by God to those who serve his purposes)is not some kind of universal, all encompassing, optionally deployable, mechanism available to folks who profess a calling from God to be RULERS over a subset of members of God's own body.

Every one of us are thankful when clear boundaries mark a changeover point in secular authorities dominon in various aspects of our lives. Easy to understand, certainly not a whittle-whang excercise.

If the mayor of your town comes into your house and says, "your wife will do the cooking for our local school", is it just whittle-whanging? Or would you say, "mayor, you are operating from an authority you do not have based on 'where you are standing, you have crossed over a boundary, you are out of place!"

If a policeman from Russia is on vacation in Pensylvania pulls me over for not having my seatbeats fastened, would we think it a silly whittle-whang matter involving boundaries? Afterall, doesn't AUTHORITY REALLY EXIST, are we flying in the face of this obvious condition pertaining to the Russian police officer?

If a school teacher, who is the Football coach, tells your Son that he will join the Football team or else it could impact his grade in English class....is this just whittle-whang silliness about the reality of boundaries and the application of authority?

Sorry Coon, for you to unbundle a discussion of authority from the applicable REALMS defined by boundaries is a regrettable, wide-open invitation for any number of over-reaching misapplications.

A king is ruler. A King has no aspect of his Kingdom that is not subject to his authority. The reason this is so is because of the force he has available to deliver a punitive sanction against the rebellous. Without such force, there is no authority. This should be the self-witnessing reality that there is no authority existing between members of the body of Christ; it is only between MEMBER and HEAD.

Without authority there certainly can be influence, particularly where a heart is open to consider the words of his guide who has consistently demonstrated wisdom and understanding. I have a scriptural admonition to qualify those who I would follow as guides (it would be foolish to do otherwise) Obviously such a reguirement is diametrically opposed to OBEYING a RULER placed over me.
Note: If this ruffles some feathers of folks sitting in Moses' seat, please consider the soul that sits in the pews of local Methodist church....should they OBEY their RULERS?

Sorry Coon, concerning member-to-member roles in the body of Christ, all you and I have is influence.

Concerning unclean spirits, evil spirits, infirmities, and seducing spirits, they are SUBJECT to our authority in the Kingdom of God.

If, as servants to our Lord, we apply our authority WHERE it has dominion, rather than crossing boundaries into REALMS pertaining to another member of his Body, peace will be served in our shared assembly.

I am not unwilling to discuss it in the context of applications; it seemed to me that you were insisting that there was NO application of what we would call pastoral authority sanctioned by the Scripture.

Discussing the various applications and boundaries of pastoral authority have consumed more bandwidth than any other thing on these forums. I have discussed it until I am bored with it. That is basically at the crux of all the Standards threads. They've been done to death.

As the pastor of our church, there are some things I take the oversight of.

I determine who preaches in our pulpit.

I cast vision for the local assembly, and oversee the execution of that vision.

I determine, through the guidance of Scripture and the Spirit, the expectations we have for our leadership within the Body.

I preach the Gospel and teach the Word regularly, and endeavor to teach principles that equip the Body for maturity, ministry, and spiritual growth.

Because they trust me, saints ask me for advice and counsel on various matters when they feel the need. I do my best to give them wise counsel.

Any level of submission they give me is entirely voluntary, as I cannot force anyone to do anything, and have no desire to.