UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit! - Page 85

missourimary · #**841** 07-15-2010, 08:11 AM

Here are some of my questions about the article:

Where are these three levels of holiness talked about in the Bible? Is this holiness or holier-than-thou-ness?

Holiness is bred into us by preaching? Not by the work of God in our lives, not by study and prayer and setting aside time with God who is Holy? I guess I've missed the passage about holiness being bred into us in my studies as well. It sounds well thought out, but I find no scriptural foundation.

God's word clearly states the difference between the holy and the profane. The passages cited don't give priests the right or responsibility to enforce more than God has taught, but rather to teach the people the word of God. And this was the responsibility of OT priests, not NT pastors.

From the article:

Quote:

A church member cannot be right with the Master and wrong with the pastor.

Really? What if the pastor is wrong with the Master?

Quote:

Christians cannot expect to go to heaven without being submissive to the Word of God. Neither can they expect to please God if they will not go to the next level and be involved in the work of God in their local church. Anyone who climbs to level two will also climb to level three and thereby fulfill Jeremiah 31:33: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they will be my people."

Wow, I didn't think anyone not submissive to the word of God was a Christian. God is not limited by location. We are called to work for Him, not the local church. Jer 31:33 isn't about outward rules and standards at all. Not that those are all necessarily bad, but this verse is about inward holiness, not outward.

DAII · #**842** 07-15-2010, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by missourimary

Here are some of my questions about the article:

Where are these three levels of holiness talked about in the Bible? Is this holiness or holier-than-thou-ness?

Holiness is bred into us by preaching? Not by the work of God in our lives, not by study and prayer and setting aside time with God who is Holy? I guess I've missed the passage about holiness being bred into us in my studies as well. It sounds well thought out, but I find no scriptural foundation.

God's word clearly states the difference between the holy and the profane. The passages cited don't give priests the right or responsibility to enforce more than God has taught, but rather to teach the people the word of God. And this was the responsibility of OT priests, not NT pastors.

From the article:

Really? What if the pastor is wrong with the Master?

Wow, I didn't think anyone not submissive to the word of God was a Christian. God is not limited by location. We are called to work for Him, not the local church. Jer 31:33 isn't about outward rules and standards at all. Not that those are all necessarily bad, but this verse is about inward holiness, not outward.

The apostles had a lot more corporate view of the Body of Christ ... entire cities with their various preaching points were considered "a local church" ...

These men have created fiefdoms with castle walls and fence, moats and dungeons.

While nothing here on the work of the Holy Spirit ... I am holy because He is holy.

drummerboy_dave · #**843** 07-15-2010, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII

The apostles had a lot more corporate view of the Body of Christ ... entire cities with their various preaching points were considered "a local church" ...

These men have created fiefdoms with castle walls and fence, moats and dungeons.

While nothing here on the work of the Holy Spirit ... I am holy because He is holy.

I agree. The bible teaches that if we seek and follow God, we walk in level 3. The manifesto teaches that level 3 is determined and managed by a pastor.

DAII · #**844** 07-15-2010, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drummerboy_dave

I agree. The bible teaches that if we seek and follow God, we walk in level 3. The manifesto teaches that level 3 is determined and managed by a pastor.

The labels "cult" and "cultish" will continue to be bandied about as long as this is an acceptable corporate view to holiness.

This is not from an eccentric, rogue evangelist with honorary doctorates from diploma mills and who teaches extra bibilical liturgical practice but the theology of a member/bishop of the inner sanctum.

drummerboy_dave · #**845** 07-15-2010, 08:33 AM

Dan, that is where I disagree. I don't believe we are to go to that extreme. We are to teach truth in love. Labels are not love.

DAII · #**846** 07-15-2010, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drummerboy_dave

Dan, that is where I disagree. I don't believe we are to go to that extreme. We are to teach truth in love. Labels are not love.

Not saying I approve or disagree with the label of cult but rather as long as this is the ideology it will bring opportunity to those that have and will continue to do so.

When we are all, even secularly, to accept that showing a knee or wearing a bikini is fornication while justifying a second marriage on these grounds ... the label will seem apropos to many.

mizpeh · #**847** 07-15-2010, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII

The apostles had a lot more corporate view of the Body of Christ ... entire cities with their various preaching points were considered "a local church" ...

These men have created fiefdoms with castle walls and fence, moats and dungeons.

While nothing here on the work of the Holy Spirit ... I am holy because He is holy.

We are set apart because of the Spirit that is in us but we are also called to separate ourselves. Be ye holy, for I am holy.... Pursue holiness...

Our salvation and walk with God is not monergistic.

But when it comes to the article, enforcing holiness is not possible!!!!!

Whatever commandments a Christian has to obey are found already written in the word of God. The sheperds are to lead the flock not force them to walk according to their own rules not found in the Bible. They aren't suppose to work out each individuals salvation , but we are to do that on our own with the guiding of the Holy Spirit. Setting up a fence is fine as long as it is a fence God has set up in his word.

missourimary · #**848** 07-15-2010, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daii

i am holy because he is holy.

DAII · #**849** 07-15-2010, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh

We are set apart because of the Spirit that is in us but we are also called to separate ourselves. Be ye holy, for I am holy.... Pursue holiness...

Our salvation and walk with God is not monergistic.

But when it comes to the article, enforcing holiness is not possible!!!!!

We can have this monergistic and synergistic debate another day, Mizzy ... since you still are shackled by various heretical doctrines ...

I think we can agree on a monergistic source of our Holiness.

But would much rather like to hear more on your thoughts on the article by Fogarty.

On the issue of enforcement ....

These men cringe and shutter when they hear their favorite extremist radio talk show blowhard speak of Sharia law in America when, ironically, they practice a similar code in their local churches.

That being said I'm all for religious freedom ...

allstate1 · #**850** 07-15-2010, 08:44 AM

Almost 40 years in a UPC chirch and I have yet to understand how holiness in the Bible means dress code! I read it as meaning a lifestyle!!