TRANSCRIPT Of Message By HANEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Esther]

Originally Posted by scotty

No thats not what he is saying. But if there is a negative to be found and brought up on one org. then that org must point out faults with the other as justification.

My daughter does this by means of a favorite excuse line that goes like this: "But _______ does it !"

But to expect one to do something you yourself is not able to do either is being a hypocrite is it not?

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Esther

But to expect one to do something you yourself is not able to do either is being a hypocrite is it not?

In order to be polite, I prefer the term. Defensive. Since Dan is basicly saying UPC has problems of their own so why would Haney be able to help them.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I heard they're on a conference call.

They'll be out in full force later.

I was thinking, earlier, that I'm not sure I want to do this, again, in 2009!

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Emergent movement?
Relevant movement?

Keith, can you define those terms, for those of us who are in the dark?

Here is a definition of emerging from Alan Hirsch.

The emerging church is primarily a renewal movement attempting to contextualize Christianity for a postmodern generation. I will post something later on relevant.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by scotty

Well , you see, there is a diversity here among the anti-UPC crowd. There are those who are "respectfully" anti-UPC. They are concerned with the inner workings as ex-UPCers because they have family who are still there, they hold a great respect for some who are in the org, and to an extent it would not take a drastic change in order for them to return but it would take change non the less.

Then there is the anti-UPC crowd who entertain themselves with every little piece of dirt they can dredge up in order to shine their negative light on the org. These types really could care less about the UPC nor the people in it, they just simply get their kicks by belittling them because they have some self invented dellusion that we see ourselves as holier than they. Many claim there is a noble purpose founded in love for the people in the org and a desire to see them "free" yet their post and broad brush comments are transparent. One need not read between the lines to get the jest of the true spirit behind the words.

Scotty, you are absolutely correct, and thank you for making the distinction.

I am in the former group. I love the UPC, it's my heritage, but I needed to move on.

However, you never disrespect your mother, no matter how much you disagree with her rules. You abide by those rules while you're in the house, and when you move out, you make the necessary changes, but you still respect your mother.

It does bother some of us when we are thrown into the same group as "anyone who has left the UPC is bitter" because that's just not the truth with many of us.

[Pastor Keith]

Relevant

rel·evant (rel′ə vənt)

adjective

bearing upon or relating to the matter in hand; pertinent; to the point

I would define a relevant church as a church that speaks about ancient faith with modern life in view. Or applying scripture into modern life.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Scotty, you are absolutely correct, and thank you for making the distinction.

I am in the former group. I love the UPC, it's my heritage, but I needed to move on.

However, you never disrespect your mother, no matter how much you disagree with her rules. You abide by those rules while you're in the house, and when you move out, you make the necessary changes, but you still respect your mother.

It does bother some of us when we are thrown into the same group as "anyone who has left the UPC is bitter" because that's just not the truth with many of us.

Very good post, I am in agreement. I love the UPC. I have never said othewise.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Scotty, you are absolutely correct, and thank you for making the distinction.

I am in the former group. I love the UPC, it's my heritage, but I needed to move on.

However, you never disrespect your mother, no matter how much you disagree with her rules. You abide by those rules while you're in the house, and when you move out, you make the necessary changes, but you still respect your mother.

It does bother some of us when we are thrown into the same group as "anyone who has left the UPC is bitter" because that's just not the truth with many of us.

I agree here. I am not bitter about the UPCI, but there are some real winners (TIC) in the movement. There are some great men and women of God in there too. Many of which I respect and have been feed by their sermons and songs. There are men and women with large egos and there are those with no egos. Balance. Good analogy Mr. Swimmer.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Esther

But to expect one to do something you yourself is not able to do either is being a hypocrite is it not?

Esther, I remember reading somewhere a few years back that the retention rate in Evangelical churches is appallingly low... something like 20% of "new believers"; and the retention rate for people who "accept Jesus as their savior" at Billy Graham's crusades -- even lower.

The evangelical movement has more than their share of problems with retention. There are many articles out there that show this pretty clearly, such as:

"Despite their packed megachurches, their political clout and their increasing visibility on the national stage, evangelical Christian leaders are warning one another that their teenagers are abandoning the faith in droves. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/06/us...ed=1&th&emc=th

"Craig Rench, pastor of First Church of the Nazarene in Anaheim, California, studied local church cell leader multiplication and made some alarming observations. "Retention rates among American evangelical churches range from 2 percent to 16 percent. Retention rate is the percentage of new believers who are still in the church one year after conversion."
http://www.nph.com/nphweb/html/h2ol/...ediaId=2383625

...But there are some folks here who will never talk about that.

[StillStanding]

The holy church at large is moving away from tongues and the gift of the Holy Ghost. I believe this is because of so much phoniness associated with ministries that have strongly advocated this.

"Spirit filled" Christians have as many divorces as other Christians. They aren't anymore effective in witnessing than other Christians. They have the same retention problems as other Christians. etc, etc.

It sounds to me that certain "Charismatic" leaders are wanting to be transparent and face the problems that are facing the movement. Others who attended decided to remain on their perch and pretend problems don't exist.

In my opinion, the "spirit filled' church at large has become tired! They are tired of the pressure to emotionally hit a home run in every service or the service is a failure.

What the holy church needs is a HOLY GHOST BAILOUT! Not one that is primed by shouting music or cheerleader type screaming, but one that comes at an unexpected time where nobody can take credit for "helping" it come.