The "Claim to the Name"

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Your view has to explain away the meaning of "water" to mean anything but baptism.

Are you saying that repentance, water baptism, and Spirit baptism are not found anywhere in scripture? Really?

Paul started off with what everyone has to start out with...belief in Christ. That wasn't the be all and end all of salvation otherwise Paul would have taught things a little bit differently. He would never have said, " Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" knowing full well that they would have received the Spirit at faith because without the Spirit of Christ we can not be Christ's.

I don't have to explain it away at all. Jesus defines it immediately, that which is born of the flesh is flesh. It wasn't the be all and end all? So Paul pulled the bait and switch on the jailer?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

EVERY WAR has a religious undertone? I don't think so. Fighting, according to James, whether on a small scale or a large scale is caused by ungodly desires. They may disguise it in the name of God but in truth it is a lust for power and material wealth.

From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war James 4:1-2

What is your definition of "religion"? There is such a thing as pure religion.

The first recorded murder was over religion
ref Genesis 4:3-8

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Then you are saying, "that which is born of flesh is born of the water." Sorry, it doesn't say that either!

No. That which is born of the water is flesh.

I don't have to misquote it to make it say something it doesn't. If you want to interpret the way you do go ahead, but at least I don't go to another book by another author to define something that is defined within a few verses.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think our Trinitarian friends simply see God through the stained glass windows of religious tradition. I think that both Trinitarians and Oneness believers love and reverence the name of Jesus to their utmost.
...

I think BOTH trinitarians and oneness see God, baptism, salvation through the stained glass windows of our religious tradition.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Sharp eye, Baron. I didn't catch or honestly, even read all of it. It makes a major difference, doesn't it?

It absolutely makes all the difference. This forces an interpretation on Scripture that is strained at best.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

Wow... Was this at a UPC conference? I personally have never heard "Holy, Holy, Holy" sang at a UPC event or church service, even with the lyrics changed.

It was a UPC church, and mainly a UPC conference. There were attendees from other organizations, and even some independent, but it was hosted by and sponsored by UPC churches.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

We sing it

We sing it at the trinitarian church where I go.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
EVERY WAR has a religious undertone? I don't think so. Fighting, according to James, whether on a small scale or a large scale is caused by ungodly desires. They may disguise it in the name of God but in truth it is a lust for power and material wealth.

From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war James 4:1-2

What is your definition of "religion"? There is such a thing as pure religion.

Isn't the love of money the root of all evil? If we expand the definition of money to also include wealth and power we can probably link it to every war ever fought -at least one side since you can probably make the case that one side is usually defending themselves.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I'm not sure what I can do except chuckle. Exhibit A in theological arrogance. Oh well, at least you're honest about your superiority.

But this is validation of what NotforSale said about war. How can there ever be peace within the Christian Community of our world with attitudes like this? My goodness.

I guess this is why I was never able to assimilate into the "ex-upc" culture. For most, it was just the upc with no dress code. Same exclusivity, different clothes.

NOW, your not treating his statement correctly. I don't see it as arrogant, but factual. Also MOW noted that trinitarians had a better understanding of justification, and I would add to that grace.

Its not arrogance, but fact.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

It absolutely makes all the difference. This forces an interpretation on Scripture that is strained at best.

It's not strained at all when you look at what Jesus taught and how the disciples put His teaching into practice.

John 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those who welcomed Christ even those who believed on his name were given the ability to BECOME the sons of God. They were born of God. How did this new birth take place? What did the apostles teach...? This verse certainly isn't teaching the new birth happens AT faith but instead it teaches that faith in Christ is the enabler or the means by which someone is born of God.