Worship Casualties: Who speaks for the injured?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Esther

I did not see two major scriptures you quoted that says God doesn't slay people with His Spirit.

What were they?

Well first, if you call actions of so-called "worship" that can and does result in injuries, some severe, how in the world can you call such actions "Decent and orderly"? That's biblical reference #1.

Secondly, read post 45 in this thread.

[NotforSale]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Esther

No I guess I missed them. I saw where you talked about things being done decently and in order as being your concept to say folks are out of order to worship God with all their soul, mind, and spirit. Just as David worship so that his wife was embarrased by his worship, perhaps you agree with her???

......and yes of course, we have the obligatory verse about David dancing with all his might until he was naked and his wife was embarrassed.

First, there are a lot of things that were done in the culture of Old Testament Judaism that are no longer practiced in the New...unless you have a laver of water and a Holy of Holies at your church.

Second...this was a traditional cultural dance that was choreographed and practiced. It was NOT frantic, out-of-control, "shouting." Not even close.

Third...He shed his kingly robe. That's what his wife was embarrassed about. David had shed his cloak of authority.

And Fourth...there's nothing in the story that indicates that what David did was a good thing.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Well first, if you call actions of so-called "worship" that can and does result in injuries, some severe, how in the world can you call such actions "Decent and orderly"? That's biblical reference #1.

Secondly, read post 45 in this thread.

I understand your disagreement. But I would respectfully suggest that I could get statements from dozens who will say they howled like a dog, laughed like a hyena, or pooped in their diapers and there was just no way they could help it. In fact, I've heard the testimonials in the Rodney Howard Brown-type stuff.

I've had some very strong divine encounters. But I was never out of control. God doesn't want us to be out of control. It's the same reason He doesn't want us to get drunk on alcohol. And "Self-Control" is one of the Fruit of the Spirit. If a Fruit of the Spirit is "Self-Control", how could I be totally "Out-of-control" and claim I'm under the influence of the Holy Spirit? I'm unable to connect those dots.

This is your #45 post.

"Self-Control" which fruit are you referring to being Self-Control? Temperance?

[Esther]

Originally Posted by notofworks

......and yes of course, we have the obligatory verse about David dancing with all his might until he was naked and his wife was embarrassed.

First, there are a lot of things that were done in the culture of Old Testament Judaism that are no longer practiced in the New...unless you have a laver of water and a Holy of Holies at your church.

Second...this was a traditional cultural dance that was choreographed and practiced. It was NOT frantic, out-of-control, "shouting." Not even close.

Third...He shed his kingly robe. That's what his wife was embarrassed about. David had shed his cloak of authority.

And Fourth...there's nothing in the story that indicates that what David did was a good thing.

You know I now think you may have some very serious issues by this last statement.

IF there was nothing good that David did then tell me why God make his wife barren?

I don't know why you have an issue with worshipping God, but that is what David was doing with ALL his might and ALL his heart. That is what we are all supposed to do.

Saying that does not mean "to me" that you have to get up and dance. You may kneel and weep. Everyone is different. But true sincere worship will never be out of order. IMO

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Esther

I understand your disagreement. But I would respectfully suggest that I could get statements from dozens who will say they howled like a dog, laughed like a hyena, or pooped in their diapers and there was just no way they could help it. In fact, I've heard the testimonials in the Rodney Howard Brown-type stuff.

I've had some very strong divine encounters. But I was never out of control. God doesn't want us to be out of control. It's the same reason He doesn't want us to get drunk on alcohol. And "Self-Control" is one of the Fruit of the Spirit. If a Fruit of the Spirit is "Self-Control", how could I be totally "Out-of-control" and claim I'm under the influence of the Holy Spirit? I'm unable to connect those dots.

This is your #45 post.

"Self-Control" which fruit are you referring to being Self-Control? Temperance?

Yes, of course.

"But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law." (Galatians 5:22-23 NLT)

[Esther]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Yes, of course.

"But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law." (Galatians 5:22-23 NLT)

Temperance doesn't translate to self-control, IMO. I would say it would be more acturate to say balance.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Esther

Temperance doesn't translate to self-control, IMO. I would say it would be more acturate to say balance.

"Temperance" in Galatians 5:23, does translate into "self control."

G1466
ἐγκράτεια
egkrateia
eng-krat'-i-ah
From G1468; self control (especially continence): - temperance.

The root word means literally "to be strong in something," or to have the "mastery" over something. In this context, the "thing" that one is to have "mastery" over is "Self."

This is from the Bible Knowledge Commentary on Galatians 5:23:

"Self-control (enkrateia; this noun is used in the NT only here and in Acts 24:25; 2 Peter 1:6) denotes self-mastery and no doubt primarily relates to curbing the fleshly impulses just described. Such a quality is impossible to attain apart from the power of God’s Spirit (cf. Galatians 5:16); As a final summary statement Paul affirmed that there are no prohibitions (lit., there is not a law) against such virtues. In a litotes (understatement) he asserted that obviously no one would make laws against people who practice such things."

How all of this "translates" into the mystical and ecstatic experiences that have characterized much of the religious experience for humans is a point of further debate; but the meaning here is "self control."

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Esther

You know I now think you may have some very serious issues by this last statement.

IF there was nothing good that David did then tell me why God make his wife barren?

I don't know why you have an issue with worshipping God, but that is what David was doing with ALL his might and ALL his heart. That is what we are all supposed to do.

Saying that does not mean "to me" that you have to get up and dance. You may kneel and weep. Everyone is different. But true sincere worship will never be out of order. IMO

She was barren because she spoke out against him, not because she didn't like what he did.

I have no issue with worshipping, but if you'll research the New Testament, you'll find that our worship is our LIFESTYLE, not something we try out for 30 minutes once each week. Worship is a lifestyle, not an event.

As far as exuberance goes, although I don't know you, I seriously doubt if you could ever put out more energy I do every Sunday. I give it EVERYTHING and I leave not an ounce of effort behind. So you wouldn't be anywhere in the neighborhood of accuracy if you think I don't give it my all.

[ILG]

My thinking was always that if God was in it there would be no injuries. I never saw any.