Is the grass truly greener....on the other side?!?

[Sister Alvear]

Let me see if I can express this without sounding rude ...
Years ago there were not many educated people in Pentecost. As people learned to read and research for themselves many things changed.
I remember growing up and at campmeetings people preached against wearing red, ladies had to use hose with seams (seamless hose was a BAD sign, doctors were a no-no...leaning on the arm of flesh. Amost everything was a sin...Adultry or an Asprin was about on the same level...babies were born at home...

As time passed you could not even buy hose with seams...lol...
I went to Brazil as a missionary and marrried...
when I was expecting Raul Jr people encouraged me to have him at home and trust God...However there came a time I had to decide , go to the doctor or die...he could not be born normal...I spent many hours in prayer until I felt the Lord wanted me to live and not die...I went...some back them made statements I failed the Lord...but years have passed as many that said things have since went to doctors...

Time teaches us a lot of things...balance and wisdom is one of them...

As I have often expressed, church is not a free for all but we must have guidlines within the OLD BLACK BOOK...

Sin will always be sin...The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.’ (Galatians 5:19-21)


The book of Proverbs mentions several deadly sins...


A proud look.
A lying tongue.
Hands that shed innocent blood.
A heart that devises wicked plots.
Feet that are swift to run into mischief.
A deceitful witness that uttereth lies.
Him that soweth discord among brethren


someone said the Bible mentions 667 things that are a sin...I am not for sure if that number is correct however many things are black and white in the Bible...other things might now be a sin but could become a sin...one writer spoke about weights...since we are in a race we sure don´t want weights!


Proverbs 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.


May the Lord give us wisdom to know what sin really is...and what foolishness is...some so called doctrines are foolish. (in due respect)

I think it is fine to have convictions...we all should have our personal convictions...however for me to make others live my personal convictions is not a Biblical principle.

As a leader great power and authority is invested in me by God. One day I will stand before HIM and He will not only know about the ones I have helped to save HE also knows about the ones I run off because of ignorance!

In the study of Jewish legal terminology in Matthew 18:18
“I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

we learn that:

The expressions “bind” and “loose” were common to Jewish legal phraseology meaning to declare something forbidden or to declare it allowed.

The law was so complex...even with 615 commandents...some seemed in a grey area so the priests could establish bounds...

The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament adds: “‘Bind’ and ‘loose’ are technical terms in Judaism…with respect to teaching, the phrase is used for authoritative exposition of the law by an authorized, ordained rabbi, who has authority ‘to forbid and to permit.

HOWEVER they were writing what we nw call the Bible...there are now no new revelations...Gal. makes that plain...We cannot add or take from the book...

His word is forever established...I AM NOT SAYING THROW DOCTRINE OUT THE WINDOW...FOR DOCTRINE IS IMPORTANT....just make sure it is sound doctrine.


The Bible is our rule of faith and practice. But the Bible, like the Torah [Genesis through Deuteronomy], does not cover every situation that comes up in Christian life and leadership.

We face many different problems today than the first church...so that means we must pray and seek God to have the right answers. Jesus teachings are very important...He taught us to love...to care...

We need to be sure to follow God’s leadings in what we forbide or permit.

Jesus’ instruction to his disciples made perfect sense in the culture of his day, and still makes perfect sense today. We are always to look for God’s guidance before we make rules that forbid or permit people’s actions.


It is ok to tell people...the Bible is not clear or I do not understand...however I think...I feel...make sure your people understand what the Bible is clear about...Don´t try to make your people feel you have God´s latest revelation and some new light has shinned on your path...

Want to say more but time to leave for ladies meeting...maybe more later....as the writer of long ago said, follow peace with all men and holiness without no man shall see the Lord.

[ILG]

Good post Sis. A.

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Let me see if I can express this without sounding rude ...
Years ago there were not many educated people in Pentecost. As people learned to read and research for themselves many things changed.
I remember growing up and at campmeetings people preached against wearing red, ladies had to use hose with seams (seamless hose was a BAD sign, doctors were a no-no...leaning on the arm of flesh. Amost everything was a sin...Adultry or an Asprin was about on the same level...babies were born at home...

As time passed you could not even buy hose with seams...lol...
I went to Brazil as a missionary and marrried...
when I was expecting Raul Jr people encouraged me to have him at home and trust God...However there came a time I had to decide , go to the doctor or die...he could not be born normal...I spent many hours in prayer until I felt the Lord wanted me to live and not die...I went...some back them made statements I failed the Lord...but years have passed as many that said things have since went to doctors...

Time teaches us a lot of things...balance and wisdom is one of them...

As I have often expressed, church is not a free for all but we must have guidlines within the OLD BLACK BOOK...

Sin will always be sin...The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.’ (Galatians 5:19-21)


The book of Proverbs mentions several deadly sins...


A proud look.
A lying tongue.
Hands that shed innocent blood.
A heart that devises wicked plots.
Feet that are swift to run into mischief.
A deceitful witness that uttereth lies.
Him that soweth discord among brethren


someone said the Bible mentions 667 things that are a sin...I am not for sure if that number is correct however many things are black and white in the Bible...other things might now be a sin but could become a sin...one writer spoke about weights...since we are in a race we sure don´t want weights!


Proverbs 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.


May the Lord give us wisdom to know what sin really is...and what foolishness is...some so called doctrines are foolish. (in due respect)

I think it is fine to have convictions...we all should have our personal convictions...however for me to make others live my personal convictions is not a Biblical principle.

As a leader great power and authority is invested in me by God. One day I will stand before HIM and He will not only know about the ones I have helped to save HE also knows about the ones I run off because of ignorance!

In the study of Jewish legal terminology in Matthew 18:18
“I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

we learn that:

The expressions “bind” and “loose” were common to Jewish legal phraseology meaning to declare something forbidden or to declare it allowed.

The law was so complex...even with 615 commandents...some seemed in a grey area so the priests could establish bounds...

The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament adds: “‘Bind’ and ‘loose’ are technical terms in Judaism…with respect to teaching, the phrase is used for authoritative exposition of the law by an authorized, ordained rabbi, who has authority ‘to forbid and to permit.

HOWEVER they were writing what we nw call the Bible...there are now no new revelations...Gal. makes that plain...We cannot add or take from the book...

His word is forever established...I AM NOT SAYING THROW DOCTRINE OUT THE WINDOW...FOR DOCTRINE IS IMPORTANT....just make sure it is sound doctrine.


The Bible is our rule of faith and practice. But the Bible, like the Torah [Genesis through Deuteronomy], does not cover every situation that comes up in Christian life and leadership.

We face many different problems today than the first church...so that means we must pray and seek God to have the right answers. Jesus teachings are very important...He taught us to love...to care...

We need to be sure to follow God’s leadings in what we forbide or permit.

Jesus’ instruction to his disciples made perfect sense in the culture of his day, and still makes perfect sense today. We are always to look for God’s guidance before we make rules that forbid or permit people’s actions.


It is ok to tell people...the Bible is not clear or I do not understand...however I think...I feel...make sure your people understand what the Bible is clear about...Don´t try to make your people feel you have God´s latest revelation and some new light has shinned on your path...

Want to say more but time to leave for ladies meeting...maybe more later....as the writer of long ago said, follow peace with all men and holiness without no man shall see the Lord.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Let me see if I can express this without sounding rude ...
Years ago there were not many educated people in Pentecost. As people learned to read and research for themselves many things changed.
I remember growing up and at campmeetings people preached against wearing red, ladies had to use hose with seams (seamless hose was a BAD sign, doctors were a no-no...leaning on the arm of flesh. Amost everything was a sin...Adultry or an Asprin was about on the same level...babies were born at home...

As time passed you could not even buy hose with seams...lol...
I went to Brazil as a missionary and marrried...
when I was expecting Raul Jr people encouraged me to have him at home and trust God...However there came a time I had to decide , go to the doctor or die...he could not be born normal...I spent many hours in prayer until I felt the Lord wanted me to live and not die...I went...some back them made statements I failed the Lord...but years have passed as many that said things have since went to doctors...

Time teaches us a lot of things...balance and wisdom is one of them...

As I have often expressed, church is not a free for all but we must have guidlines within the OLD BLACK BOOK...

Sin will always be sin...The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.’ (Galatians 5:19-21)


The book of Proverbs mentions several deadly sins...


A proud look.
A lying tongue.
Hands that shed innocent blood.
A heart that devises wicked plots.
Feet that are swift to run into mischief.
A deceitful witness that uttereth lies.
Him that soweth discord among brethren


someone said the Bible mentions 667 things that are a sin...I am not for sure if that number is correct however many things are black and white in the Bible...other things might now be a sin but could become a sin...one writer spoke about weights...since we are in a race we sure don´t want weights!


Proverbs 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.


May the Lord give us wisdom to know what sin really is...and what foolishness is...some so called doctrines are foolish. (in due respect)

I think it is fine to have convictions...we all should have our personal convictions...however for me to make others live my personal convictions is not a Biblical principle.

As a leader great power and authority is invested in me by God. One day I will stand before HIM and He will not only know about the ones I have helped to save HE also knows about the ones I run off because of ignorance!

In the study of Jewish legal terminology in Matthew 18:18
“I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

we learn that:

The expressions “bind” and “loose” were common to Jewish legal phraseology meaning to declare something forbidden or to declare it allowed.

The law was so complex...even with 615 commandents...some seemed in a grey area so the priests could establish bounds...

The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament adds: “‘Bind’ and ‘loose’ are technical terms in Judaism…with respect to teaching, the phrase is used for authoritative exposition of the law by an authorized, ordained rabbi, who has authority ‘to forbid and to permit.

HOWEVER they were writing what we nw call the Bible...there are now no new revelations...Gal. makes that plain...We cannot add or take from the book...

His word is forever established...I AM NOT SAYING THROW DOCTRINE OUT THE WINDOW...FOR DOCTRINE IS IMPORTANT....just make sure it is sound doctrine.


The Bible is our rule of faith and practice. But the Bible, like the Torah [Genesis through Deuteronomy], does not cover every situation that comes up in Christian life and leadership.

We face many different problems today than the first church...so that means we must pray and seek God to have the right answers. Jesus teachings are very important...He taught us to love...to care...

We need to be sure to follow God’s leadings in what we forbide or permit.

Jesus’ instruction to his disciples made perfect sense in the culture of his day, and still makes perfect sense today. We are always to look for God’s guidance before we make rules that forbid or permit people’s actions.


It is ok to tell people...the Bible is not clear or I do not understand...however I think...I feel...make sure your people understand what the Bible is clear about...Don´t try to make your people feel you have God´s latest revelation and some new light has shinned on your path...

Want to say more but time to leave for ladies meeting...maybe more later....as the writer of long ago said, follow peace with all men and holiness without no man shall see the Lord.

The short answer to unitedpraise's question might be this:

Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

[Orthodoxy]

A little off-topic from the original post, but...

I know there is some debate on this thread about whether or not it is important to be connected to a local church.

First, let me say that after leaving a UPCI church over a year ago, we are still in search of a church that we can call home. For the past several months, we've been actively visiting many different kinds of churches: nondenominational, charismatic, more UPC, Baptist, etc. This is so bizarre because I was raised fourth generation Oneness Pentecostal, and never dreamed we'd be "unchurched" or visiting other denominations.

However, I just recently finished reading the new book Why We Love the Church: In Praise of Institutions and Organized Religion, by Kevin DeYoung and Ted Kluck. The book is very thought-provoking, Bible-based, and at times pretty hilarious due to the author's use of humor. A very enjoyable read.

I'm now more convinced than ever that it is not God's will for believers to be "Lone Ranger Christians," and disconnected from a local assembly. That said, I pray fervently that we can settle down somewhere soon.

Now, I'm not saying that you should just settle for any church (I personally would never go back to the UPCI, for example), but as DeYoung and Kluck say, you can't love God and be flippant about his Bride.

Here is just one quote from the book (if you haven't yet gotten the hint, read it! ):

"This book is not meant to be an apology for nothing but more of the same; rather, it's a plea for realism. Things are not the worst they've ever been. The end of the church in America is not nigh upon us. There are grave failings in the church, in the evangelical church as much as anywhere. We need better preaching, better theology, more love for Jesus, more involvement in our neighborhoods, more evangelism, more crosscultural missions, more generosity, more biblical literacy, less worldliness, less trend-tracing, and better discipleship...But in the midst of our struggles, we need to guard against wild hyperbole. We need to exercise more caution before we pronounce the end of the church as we know it. We need a little more humility before we announce everything must change. And we need more wisdom before we reinvent the church for yet another time -- let alone before we pitch her to the curb altogether."

[Digging4Truth]

The grass is always greener when you are walking in your own convictions and not held by fences you don't believe in.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

The grass is always greener when you are walking in your own convictions and not held by fences you don't believe in.

Yes and the Catholic church claims this is why Protestants are so divided and not settled on a belief system like they are in unity, because every person is left to think and interpret on their own in Protestant circles.

Is this a valid argument?

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Yes and the Catholic church claims this is why Protestants are so divided and not settled on a belief system like they are in unity, because every person is left to think and interpret on their own in Protestant circles.

Is this a valid argument?

When men are free there is the freedom to think, study and decide for oneself. This always opens the opportunity for differing conclusions. But, over time, truth can prevail as long as the various camps don't create for themselves little "catholic churches' where they rally around and convince one another of the error of every one elses ways.

And... even so... unity by demand is not unity.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

When men are free there is the freedom to think, study and decide for oneself. This always opens the opportunity for differing conclusions. But, over time, truth can prevail as long as the various camps don't create for themselves little "catholic churches' where they rally around and convince one another of the error of every one elses ways.

And... even so... unity by demand is not unity.

Amen!

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by unitedpraise10

I have a question. As a United Pentecostal Church member, I am ofter flabbergasted at the amount of people (our people) that leave the UPCI for other denominations. I'm not talking about leaving and going to a WPF or ALJC church. I'm talking about leaving and retreating to a non-denominational church or something similar. In some cases UPCI pastors have completely taken their entire churches in this direction. (I know of a UPCI church here in Missouri that made a 180 degree turn just with in this past year, and they are still listed on the United Pentecostal Church International "church locator").

I guess my question is, is why? I'm not being bitter or hateful. I'm just curious. What makes some "BOOM" make a complete change like that? Some say it's freedom....but I still don't get it.

2 things come to mind:

1. When people discover that they've been lied to about a small thing, they question everything they've been taught--even the big things. Steve Pixler said that (not verbatim) in a sermon awhile back, and he's an ultra-con--not even CLOSE to being a liberal. And I agree with him wholeheartedly. That's why it's important to be 100% honest about what the Word of God says and doesn't say, and that's why people leave everything behind and not just a few things.

2. It's rarely an overnight change, even when it appears that way. Most people have been thinking, considering, wondering, questioning for a long, long time. They just keep those thoughts private, so when they finally surface they may be surprising--but it's doubtful that they're new.


The problem really compounds itself when the person who is questioning doesn't have a firm foundation in God's Word and a strong personal relationship with God. Then that person is left to try to figure everything out without any guidance, and that spells disaster. A good response to seeing that men fail and men lie and men are hypocritical is to go back to the Word and see a God who doesn't fail and doesn't lie and who is dependable, and get answers from Him. That will bring calm in the midst of chaos. People aren't trustworthy, but God is. It's very dangerous to depend on people for our relationship with God and it's unproductive to expect people to be anything less than people. Human beings are fallible, and expecting them to be fallible helps us approach human relationships with a large measure of pragmatism and even a sense of humor.

Okay, wait...what was the question again?

[Cindy]

It's according to what you think the other side is. I have been in other denominational churches. One where the Spirit of God was present, and one where it wasn't.