Truth and Deception

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by shazeep

me, too. Ok, when i read "thus ends my involvement with this post," i hear "the matter is settled with me, and i'm not listening or responding anymore," wadr. "I'm protecting my fragile beliefs from the fire." wadr.

Or, "I've said all that can be said from my point of view. No one is changing their minds, and since the continuous 'whack away at the concepts presented' is nothing more than dead horse beating, i.e. it's unfruitful, there is therefore not much reason to engage further".

Unlike some on this board, I can resist the urge to commit a work of the flesh which in Greek is called eris, which means to wrangle/quarrel or debate endlessly in order to have the last word (See Galatians 5:19-21 "variance").

You shouldn't be so cynical of everyone's motives, Shazeep.

[KeptByTheWord]

Your opinions and thoughts are always welcome and appreciated, VS. I know that your heart is sincere, and that what you say and what you believe are one and the same. I would like to agree to disagree, as I see and understand your point of view, but I am coming from a different perspective. Even though it does seem that you have cast more severe judgment on me for not agreeing with you But that is fine too, because when you open up discussion like this, it is not likely to find too many that all agree, so again, I do appreciate your involvement in this post.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Or, "I've said all that can be said from my point of view. No one is changing their minds, and since the continuous 'whack away at the concepts presented' is nothing more than dead horse beating, i.e. it's unfruitful, there is therefore not much reason to engage further".

Unlike some on this board, I can resist the urge to commit a work of the flesh which in Greek is called eris, which means to wrangle/quarrel or debate endlessly in order to have the last word (See Galatians 5:19-21 "variance").

You shouldn't be so cynical of everyone's motives, Shazeep.

ah, ok--and ya, i'm horrible

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Your opinions and thoughts are always welcome and appreciated, VS. I know that your heart is sincere, and that what you say and what you believe are one and the same. I would like to agree to disagree, as I see and understand your point of view, but I am coming from a different perspective. Even though it does seem that you have cast more severe judgment on me for not agreeing with you But that is fine too, because when you open up discussion like this, it is not likely to find too many that all agree, so again, I do appreciate your involvement in this post.

Hi, Sis (and to all)

I hope it is realized that I have not and do not ever post out of animosity or because I have begrudged someone. I haven't done so in this post, or anywhere else.

Usually, when I disagree with something I read on here (not that is happens a lot; it usually comes in waves with peaks and valley's) I take a moment to consider what value is there in speaking up and putting my thoughts out there. As I've stated elsewhere, I usually don't see the need to go around being the Correction Police. I don't presume to be anyone's authority here.

But this post, to me, is and was different. The original post quoted the Lord in first person, as though He, through you, was the One who was actually speaking.

I am not against that, per se. But when someone does that, it is what the Bible calls "presuming to speak in the name of the Lord" (Deuteronomy 18:20). Whether anyone else thinks so or not, speaking for the Lord in first person is an attempt, righteous or not, at prophesying. It may not feel like it, or take on what otherwise may be considered traditional prophecy, but it is.

If you look at the vast majority of the prophets in the Old Testament, they all speak in first person on behalf of the Lord. We are commanded, that if anyone ever does that, to judge it, to determine if such a thing would truly be said by God.

We do so by comparing the "thus saith the Lord" moment with the already revealed Word of God in Scripture. I believe I have done a better than average job (with MtD and n_david, too) showing how it appears that your original post and what Christ already and actually said about the wheat and tares just doesn't match. We're in obvious disagreement.

But it is good that you are praying about it. I am, too.

For me, and not really "for me", since it's a principle in the Bible, instituted by the Maker long before I ever came around, that any such "words" must be tested and verified against THE WORD. If and when such "words" don't appear to match up, something must be said; at the very least an admonishment, intended to suggest, with proving why, such a "word" is mistaken and how such a mistake is inherently dangerous. Not just for the speaker, but also for all who read.

Scripture is replete with examples of people being emboldened by the example set forth and first by others, both for the good, but also for the bad. A "if s/he can do it, why can't I?" attitude permeates the human race.

Therefore, great, and I must emphasize, GREAT care and carefulness must be implemented any time anyone "presumes to speak in the name of the Lord", i.e. on His behalf in first person.

It's not about judging or condemning. I don't judge you less saved, less righteous, less sanctified, or any such thing. But there is a grave error to be made when we eschew the fear of the Lord and decide it's not as important as it really should be, to speak on God's behalf.

I think any saint can agree, that if ever we develop a subjective attitude toward the Word of God while at the same time, we become objective about our not provable experiences in prayer, we are taking a terrible risk.

No one likes it when someone comes along and takes their words, twists them, changes their meaning, and thus, falsely represents you to others.

And yet, we do this to God and Christ all of the time, like it's no big deal.

It's a way bigger deal to do it to God or to Christ than ever it is when someone does it to us.

That's all that I really wanted to get across. It wasn't about disproving your wheat and tares idea, although I don't think it is accurate. The main point is me hoping that all who, going forward, read this post (and all who already have), take a second, and reconsider presuming to speak in the name of the Lord in first person.

To do so and be wrong is a terrible, terrifying mistake, as the Scriptures make abundantly plain.

[jfrog]

Votive, s he did say I understood The Lord to say...

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Votive, s he did say I understood The Lord to say...

All the more reason to be careful. If a person only thinks they are understanding what the Lord is saying, but doesn't know for sure, then to speak for Him in such a way (in first person) is doubly presumptuous.

I do not say KBTW has done that, however. But if ever we are not certain of God's voice, we had better become certain before we go and quote Him on anything He is supposedly saying, or, as I have been saying all along, we risk completely mis-representing Him to the rest of the world.

I don't know everything, but I do know it's not kosher to go doing that, or even risk doing that, to the Savior of the World (since and because it injures people's ability to have faith in Him when His representatives and messengers, as His ambassadors, don't reflect Him, His will, and His Word properly).

Am I crazy, or what? Shazeep mentioned loving God too much for X (I don't recall his statement in full). I mentioned fearing God too much, as well.

But I also love Him too much, and other people, to risk misrepresenting Him to others, including myself. Better to keep silent.

The flesh has a wonderful way of inventing things that seem spiritual, just enough to make it possible to believe something was from God when it was not, or rather, and worse, that something was from a shadow of God, a God-like construct held in the mind of the believer, version 2.0, in which the person and not God, is determining who and what God is.

As much as God is love and is full of mercy, He is also a jealous God and His name is dreadful among the heathens. But His name is also blasphemed by the heathens because of His covenanted people.

I am trying to call us all to a higher, more accurate standard of faithful representation and ambassadorship. Maybe not everyone cares to come along. But I hope some do.

[shazeep]

i understood her (him?), but i see how easy it is to write one thing, and read another!

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe your heart and soul is completely void and free of all evil?

i have seen that there is a way that seems right to a man, which ends in death. I think i am in good shape, but i am really naked, blind, and whatever. This is all since getting 'saved,' which our model told me--and argued against--happened back when i got baptized; but i think they still apply to me, today. Now i think i have developed a more complete understanding of forgiveness, and i primarily strive to live a forgiven life--but this is still hard for me. My level of pride and propensity for getting down on myself over inconsequential (really) inadequacies--that many would laugh at calling actual 'sins'--tells me that i still need work in that area, and others. Of course i believe i am void of sin; because i am deceived; in ways that do not even occur to me, even yet. I don't obsess over it, but i do keep it in the back of my mind; which i think opens the door for the Holy Spirit to guide me. I have felt the Spirit depart--in retrospect--way before i committed any overt sin, due to pride, which is more subtle for me than the word would indicate.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

All the more reason to be careful. If a person only thinks they are understanding what the Lord is saying, but doesn't know for sure, then to speak for Him in such a way (in first person) is doubly presumptuous.

I do not say KBTW has done that, however. But if ever we are not certain of God's voice, we had better become certain before we go and quote Him on anything He is supposedly saying, or, as I have been saying all along, we risk completely mis-representing Him to the rest of the world.

I don't know everything, but I do know it's not kosher to go doing that, or even risk doing that, to the Savior of the World (since and because it injures people's ability to have faith in Him when His representatives and messengers, as His ambassadors, don't reflect Him, His will, and His Word properly).

Am I crazy, or what? Shazeep mentioned loving God too much for X (I don't recall his statement in full). I mentioned fearing God too much, as well.

But I also love Him too much, and other people, to risk misrepresenting Him to others, including myself. Better to keep silent.

The flesh has a wonderful way of inventing things that seem spiritual, just enough to make it possible to believe something was from God when it was not, or rather, and worse, that something was from a shadow of God, a God-like construct held in the mind of the believer, version 2.0, in which the person and not God, is determining who and what God is.

As much as God is love and is full of mercy, He is also a jealous God and His name is dreadful among the heathens. But His name is also blasphemed by the heathens because of His covenanted people.

I am trying to call us all to a higher, more accurate standard of faithful representation and ambassadorship. Maybe not everyone cares to come along. But I hope some do.

There is no difference is saying I felt god said he wanted me to do x. I felt god say, "I want you to do x"

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Hi, Sis (and to all)

I hope it is realized that I have not and do not ever post out of animosity or because I have begrudged someone. I haven't done so in this post, or anywhere else.

Usually, when I disagree with something I read on here (not that is happens a lot; it usually comes in waves with peaks and valley's) I take a moment to consider what value is there in speaking up and putting my thoughts out there. As I've stated elsewhere, I usually don't see the need to go around being the Correction Police. I don't presume to be anyone's authority here.

But this post, to me, is and was different. The original post quoted the Lord in first person, as though He, through you, was the One who was actually speaking.

I am not against that, per se. But when someone does that, it is what the Bible calls "presuming to speak in the name of the Lord" (Deuteronomy 18:20). Whether anyone else thinks so or not, speaking for the Lord in first person is an attempt, righteous or not, at prophesying. It may not feel like it, or take on what otherwise may be considered traditional prophecy, but it is.

As Jfrog already pointed out, I prefaced my thoughts about what the Lord was teaching me, as I "understood". I in no way came across, that I can see, as saying, thus saith the word of the Lord, and thus and thus hath the Lord said, and thus this shall come to pass... etc.

If I may quote Duet. 18:16-22 here to be more specific:

16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

This passage is referring to a prophet, of which I have never claimed to be. All I was sharing was something I felt the Lord impress me during my prayer time with Him.

Now, if I was calling myself a prophet(ess), and claiming that the Lord said to do thus and thus, etc.... then I can see where there is a problem.

But that is not the case, and you have pulled this scripture out of context in order to use it against what I had to say. This is why it is always helpful to put scripture into context before you use it to judge someone or something.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

If you look at the vast majority of the prophets in the Old Testament, they all speak in first person on behalf of the Lord. We are commanded, that if anyone ever does that, to judge it, to determine if such a thing would truly be said by God.

We do so by comparing the "thus saith the Lord" moment with the already revealed Word of God in Scripture. I believe I have done a better than average job (with MtD and n_david, too) showing how it appears that your original post and what Christ already and actually said about the wheat and tares just doesn't match. We're in obvious disagreement.

But it is good that you are praying about it. I am, too.

For me, and not really "for me", since it's a principle in the Bible, instituted by the Maker long before I ever came around, that any such "words" must be tested and verified against THE WORD. If and when such "words" don't appear to match up, something must be said; at the very least an admonishment, intended to suggest, with proving why, such a "word" is mistaken and how such a mistake is inherently dangerous. Not just for the speaker, but also for all who read.

Scripture is replete with examples of people being emboldened by the example set forth and first by others, both for the good, but also for the bad. A "if s/he can do it, why can't I?" attitude permeates the human race.

Therefore, great, and I must emphasize, GREAT care and carefulness must be implemented any time anyone "presumes to speak in the name of the Lord", i.e. on His behalf in first person.

It's not about judging or condemning. I don't judge you less saved, less righteous, less sanctified, or any such thing. But there is a grave error to be made when we eschew the fear of the Lord and decide it's not as important as it really should be, to speak on God's behalf.

I think any saint can agree, that if ever we develop a subjective attitude toward the Word of God while at the same time, we become objective about our not provable experiences in prayer, we are taking a terrible risk.

No one likes it when someone comes along and takes their words, twists them, changes their meaning, and thus, falsely represents you to others.

And yet, we do this to God and Christ all of the time, like it's no big deal.

It's a way bigger deal to do it to God or to Christ than ever it is when someone does it to us.

That's all that I really wanted to get across. It wasn't about disproving your wheat and tares idea, although I don't think it is accurate. The main point is me hoping that all who, going forward, read this post (and all who already have), take a second, and reconsider presuming to speak in the name of the Lord in first person.

To do so and be wrong is a terrible, terrifying mistake, as the Scriptures make abundantly plain.

I appreciate the fact that the three of you (MTD, nDavid, and yourself) have spent time explaining why you disagree with the wheat and tares parable used in this context. I believe this is iron sharpening iron, and obviously, there have been sparks, as noted by another poster.

In my last post, I explained that I do understand, believe and agree with the traditional and obvious understanding of the tares and wheat parable, but that there could also be another layer of meaning as well, which doesn't detract from the original message, but compliments it. And if you don't agree with that, I can understand that too.

I concluded my post with Paul's words, and he is talking about the fellowship of the suffering of Christ, and having not yet attained, nor yet being made perfect, but that he is pressing on. This really was the focus of my post, not the tares and the wheat. You have latched onto the tares and the wheat, and ignored the general message of what I had to say.

So, again, I do appreciate your involvement, and your time in trying to explain about speaking in the first person. I certainly understand where you are coming from, but please understand that I was not claiming to speak as a prophet(ess) at all, but was just simply relaying a thought, and understanding that came to me in my time of prayer.

Have you never shared with others what you felt the Lord dealt with you on during your time of prayer?

I can see there being a serious problem if I had come on here with some new doctrine or teaching, and said "thus saith the Lord", you must do it or else, BUT I didn't do that.

I understand quite well the warning about speaking for the Lord, as I have seen it far too many times to where someone spends their whole life doing something because someone prophesied to them in the name of the Lord, only to end up bitter and disillusioned, because perhaps it wasn't the voice of God at all.

My post was written after my time of prayer and after I had been impressed to expose the nature and deviancy of our hearts, and for us to realize that as we are pressing into Christ, we are to understand that suffering and trials are part of the equation that will pull things off our flesh, as we draw closer to Him. You can take it for what it's worth, or leave it. It is just as simple as that.

I certainly hope that within each heart of the ones who were able to read it, that there was a stirring within to shake off the things that hinder us, and to walk before the Lord realizing that none of us are perfect yet, or have attained, but are reaching forth unto the prize of the high calling of Christ Jesus, and also to be patient with others who may not be where we are yet, but to realize we are all on a journey seeking truth, and finding truth is following Jesus.

[shazeep]

Amen to that. The worst place to be is in the position of thinking you have arrived, imo; i constantly have to force myself to leave there. Each new revelation still brings that particular pride on in me!

Can anyone find any evidence of anyone in Scripture describing themselves as a prophet? I don't think you can! I may have to eat those words, but i'm not finding it? For some reason, it equates to me the same as saying, "I am a great person--" iow, just not something that really should be self-proclaimed, but meant for others to say about you? What do you think? While we're at it, 'Bishop,' too--i hear alarms @ anyone titling themselves 'Bishop.' Now, if the title is put on you by others, those you shepherd, ok...prolly i'm being weird there?