Does Islam Inspire Terrorism?

[mfblume]

Work calls. Back again this evening.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Here is a question for you.

Can you name me a majority Muslim country where freedom of religion is allowed?

By freedom of religion, I mean that other religions are allowed free practice and a Muslim is allowed to convert to another religion without being killed...

Just give me one.

i am not interested in the question, as it assumes many false premises that i do not hold to be true. Legally, we supposedly are in a religiously free society ourselves; when in actuality even the state religion is oppressed. So, judging by the fruit, i can say that i have lived in many Muslim countries, and they all knew i was a Christian, and i never suffered the oppression so endemic here.

Of course i don't proselytize, either; Christ never did this. My advice, if i were put in such a position, for anyone who is Muslim wishing to convert to something else in the belief that that might get them closer to God, and their laws preventing them from doing that--which is, like, nowhere; SA, maybe? officially?--then leave. Beautiful are the feet. (And if that is the law in SA, then why are they getting all of your money? Hypocrite!)

And since laws are, by their very nature, hypocritical, and we are really discussing how one might be in an area where one's peers would not stand for them to be of a different faith than them, regardless of the laws, my advice would be the same. Leave.

I can honestly say that this is possible; what should be understood is that it is much more likely in Mississippi than in Riyadh, in my experience. Are there some examples in the Mideast, some little burgs--that likely suffered more than their share of American Freedumb the last 20 years--that are rabidly anti-Christian? Probably.

So it becomes a question of which questions you are willing to ask, and hear the answers to. Do you want to ask questions that condemn others--people you do not even know, and have never experienced, and most likely never will--or questions that reveal our own hypocrisies?

[shazeep]

How in the world is "fight those who disagree with the laws of Allah," followed by criticizing the Jews and Christians fr believing things ALLAH SAYS ARE NOT TRUE, implying Jews and Christians disagree with the laws of Allah, not saying fight Christians and Jews?

by not cutting the passage off before it is finished, like a chump, and taking the sense of the whole passage, along with other passages that clearly state that any Jew or Christian who is not a raging hypocrite is a brother, as far as any practicing Muslim is concerned. Or, explaining the verses in the Bible that advocate violence, that many new Christians, similarly unaware of the context, struggle with. (Of course, i don't mean this for you, Mike).

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i am not interested in the question, as it assumes many false premises that i do not hold to be true. Legally, we supposedly are in a religiously free society ourselves; when in actuality even the state religion is oppressed. So, judging by the fruit, i can say that i have lived in many Muslim countries, and they all knew i was a Christian, and i never suffered the oppression so endemic here.

Of course i don't proselytize, either; Christ never did this. My advice, if i were put in such a position, for anyone who is Muslim wishing to convert to something else in the belief that that might get them closer to God, and their laws preventing them from doing that--which is, like, nowhere; SA, maybe? officially?--then leave. Beautiful are the feet. (And if that is the law in SA, then why are they getting all of your money? Hypocrite!)

And since laws are, by their very nature, hypocritical, and we are really discussing how one might be in an area where one's peers would not stand for them to be of a different faith than them, regardless of the laws, my advice would be the same. Leave.

I can honestly say that this is possible; what should be understood is that it is much more likely in Mississippi than in Riyadh, in my experience. Are there some examples in the Mideast, some little burgs--that likely suffered more than their share of American Freedumb the last 20 years--that are rabidly anti-Christian? Probably.

So it becomes a question of which questions you are willing to ask, and hear the answers to. Do you want to ask questions that condemn others--people you do not even know, and have never experienced, and most likely never will--or questions that reveal our own hypocrisies?

You are not interested in the question, because it undercuts all of your arguments.
How are you oppressed here?
Let me tell you about oppression.
A young man in a Muslim country whose family has been Muslim for years, comes to see the truth in Jesus Christ.
He now has to make a decision, knowing that one decision could lead to death here, and another would result in eternal "death".
That's oppression.
And if you believe that is just a made up story, it's not.
A friend of mine who ministers in the middle east, had this situation, just this month.
That's oppression.

[shazeep]

i would say that where the story seems to lose validity is that you have a minister friend there who is a Christian, and is obviously not dead or overly oppressed. It is much more likely that the guy is seeing ghosts, and imagining the backlash he will suffer for coming out as a Christian, because surely you know that all of the minister's neighbors are aware that he is a Christian.

Another angle to view this from is that the Qur'an already teaches the guy that he must follow Christ; so what he seeks is to be identified with Christians--he can already follow Christ from where he is at. He is running from hypocrisy, to hypocrisy, if he thinks that the affiliation will save him; which is obviously what he believes. He seeks to be one of the many who cry "Lord, Lord."

Changing religions will not save you, if you are a hypocrite; and if you are not a hypocrite, you will see that religion does not save you, but rather faith in God, which religion merely attempts to define in human terms. If this person is genuine, he will do what he feels is right, and trust that God holds his life in His hands, and he need not fear anyone coming to kill him, even if they do. Does he wish to save his life? Then he will lose it, anyway.

[shazeep]

You ask how we are oppressed here, when high-schoolers are expected to be sexually active before graduation, and made fun of if they are not, and a million other ways that might not seem like oppression to one suffering from an embarrassment of riches, at others' expense. Of course this is obscured--the fact that everything you buy supports slave labor, SA, our best friends, are by far the most oppressive "Muslim" regime, but they get all of our wealth, etc, and this is the worst kind of oppression; the kind one cannot see. The privileged are naturally the most interested in supporting the status quo.

Funny that most stories of "Muslim" oppression come out of SA, who are about as Muslim as the US gov is Christian, or the Israeli gov is Jewish. What difficulties might an Alabama farm boy have converting to Islam? He would also likely suffer quite a bit of persecution, and would have the same choice; move or die.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i would say that where the story seems to lose validity is that you have a minister friend there who is a Christian, and is obviously not dead or oppressed. It is much more likely that the guy is seeing ghosts, and imagining the backlash he will suffer for coming out as a Christian, because surely you know that all of the minister's neighbors are aware that he is a Christian.

Another angle to view this from is that the Qur'an already teaches the guy that he must follow Christ; so what he seeks is to be identified with Christians--he can already follow Christ from where he is at. He is running from hypocrisy, to hypocrisy, if he thinks that the affiliation will save him; which is obviously what he believes. He seeks to be one of the many who cry "Lord, Lord."

Changing religions will not save you, if you are a hypocrite; and if you are not a hypocrite, you will see that religion does not save you, but rather faith in God, which religion merely attempts to define in human terms. If this person is genuine, he will do what he feels is right, and trust that God holds his life in His hands, and he need not fear anyone coming to kill him, even if they do. Does he wish to save his life? Then he will lose it, anyway.

shaz - not to offend you, but there is so much tripe in the above post it is remarkable. My friend was born in that country, had to flee to the US, where he was saved and is now back there preaching. But, you evidently know the situation better than him...
Ridiculous
And the Christ the Muslims know is not the one we preach or the one that is contained in the Bible.
If you need, I can point out the differences, but I am sure you will choose to ignore them, even if I post...
Why do I bother???

[shazeep]

no, i don't know the situation, you are right; and i did take some liberties. Nonetheless, "had to flee" and "now there preaching" do set up a dichotomy, yes? Although i allow that both can be true; it is one's familiars that one must fear in those situations.

The Christology argument i will avoid for brevity's sake; it has been established on the "Love one another and the cross" thread. You are either serving Christ or you are not; God does not respect titles. All that we--nominally being "Christians"--need concern ourselves with is does Christianity inspire terrorism? Unless some Muslims have been bugging you?

After all, isn't it pretty hypocritical that we are dissing people who are based on the other side of the planet? Where is the nearest "Muslim" base to the US, i wonder? We are literally engaging in false flags here so that the slobbering bigots will have something relevant to post.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by shazeep

no, i don't know the situation, you are right; and i did take some liberties. Nonetheless, "had to flee" and "now there preaching" do set up a dichotomy, yes? Although i allow that both can be true; it is one's familiars that one must fear in those situations.

The Christology argument i will avoid for brevity's sake; it has been established on the "Love one another and the cross" thread. You are either serving Christ or you are not; God does not respect titles. All that we--nominally being "Christians"--need concern ourselves with is does Christianity inspire terrorism? Unless some Muslims have been bugging you?

After all, isn't it pretty hypocritical that we are dissing people who are based on the other side of the planet? Where is the nearest "Muslim" base to the US, i wonder? We are literally engaging in false flags here so that the slobbering bigots will have something relevant to post.

shaz - again you twist things to fit your world view. How about, his family was traditional Christian, however, his Dad put him on a plane to get him out of the country, at the age of 13, to go to Sweden due to the upheaval and violence present.
Your sheer arrogance at assuming that there was some division or lack of faith is astounding and disturbing.
Remember the Saints fleeing from Paul's persecution? I suppose they lacked faith as well.
And who are these "slobbering bigots"?
Anyone that sees things differently than you?
I find it amazing that whenever someone's speech becomes disturbing they must be labeled a "bigot, racist or nazi."

[shazeep]

well, i admit that i don't know the details, and the characterization you gave might be completely true. Yet there is a Christian minister, present and ministering, to forward the story. Both things seem to be true, yes? I don't mean to imply a lack of faith, if there is none; but i do mean to if there is. I would run, personally, absent some very strong unction. Fools rush in, and i don't advocate testing God.

But what is the point of the story, if not "Muslims are bad, mmmkay, and Christians are good, and i have proof from the other side of the planet." that cannot effectively be verified in its details, and can only be divisive. But of course the Mississippi boy having to run is completely understandable, because "we" are on the "right" side, and that story would not make the news because it would not even qualify as news, just as your story would not over there. That makes them no less tragic, but it does suggest that blame is being manufactured.

As to the slobbering bigots, they are revealed by comparing what they represent that they believe to what they actually demonstrate that they believe, the same as hypocrites anywhere. Me included. If your stated faith teaches Whom shall i fear? and you are posting "fear Muslims," then there you go. If i do it, call it, by all means. It is easy to slip into hypocrisy, i get caught all the time.