Everybody must have a pastor?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Pastors are part of the eldership and usually take part in the oversight of the local assembly. A pastor (shepherd) is one who 'teaches', because they 'feed the flock' with the Word, demonstrating it's truths by their examples of godly and faithful living. A local assembly may have several 'pastors', just as it may have several prophets, evangelists, etc.

Pastor is not an office in the assembly, it is a gift, it is how the Spirit operates through a particular individual for the benefit of the assembly. The offices are bishops (overseers) aka elders, and deacons (servants). An overseer (bishop or elder) charged with oversight may be a pastor. Or he may be a prophet. Or he may be an evangelist. Or he may be something else, depending on how the Spirit manifests through him (see 1 Cor 12-14, Romans 12, etc).

Nobody appoints or elects teachers, prophets, evangelists, etc. But, bishops and deacons are appointed. The two classes therefore are not synonymous. What most people call a 'pastor' I would call an elder or bishop/overseer, somebody with oversight of the local assembly.

And the ideal (depending on the situation) seems to be plural eldership in the local assembly.

The term pastor applies to a person as much as apostle does, according to Eph 4. So if pastor is not what people today think it is, then what is it?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Actually people can be OVER us.

Heb_13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Heb_13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

Dear, Mike

I appreciate your sincerely held convictions, and you insistence on going to the Word for everything you're sharing here.

But please let me point something out to you about the verses you quoted, and then make some further points.

In the verses you presented, namely Hebrews 13:7, and Hebrews 13:7, and Hebrews 13:24, there is no use of any word for "over" in the Greek. The phrase "have the rule over" in all three cases, is one Greek word, hegoumenon, and it means "to lead the way, as in going before".

Sources:

Hegoumenon: http://biblehub.com/greek/2233.htm

Hebrews 13:7: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/13-7.htm

Hebrews 13:17: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/13-17.htm

Hebrews 13:24: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/13-24.htm

People who truly lead are not "over", as in above, but rather, are in "front" of. Only do we see in the world's system of governance and organization, that those who "lead" are likewise "over". But the church doesn't, or at least shouldn't, reflect the way the world governs itself.

Compare this to Hebrews 3:6,

But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Here, there is a Greek word for "over", and it is the preposition epi, which means "(up)on, over, or above".

Source: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=G1909&t=KJV

The same is true in Hebrews 10:21,

And having an high priest over the house of God...

It's the same Greek preposition, epi, meaning "(up)on, over, or above".

What this means is that the author of Hebrews, in experiencing inspiration from the Holy Spirit, had the linguistic know-how to use the proper terms to designate intended meaning. When he wanted to express the fact that Jesus, as Son and High Priest, is positionally located OVER and ABOVE His house--that being the Son of God and High Priest is what makes Him so--He had the tools to do so. Therefore, had he, the author of Hebrews, so desired and wanted to, he could have easily expressed the same thing regarding the saints in the church later on in the letter (i.e. in Hebrews 13:7 and 17 and 24) by using the same Greek preposition, epi.

But he didn't do so. The Holy Spirit didn't inspire the use of epi in Hebrews 13:7 and 17, or 24.

As regards 1 Thessalonians 5:12,

And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you...

Here, the Greek word isn't epi, either. It's proistamenous, and it means to stand before, from pros meaning "before" and histemi, meaning to "stand".

Sources:

Pros: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...?Strongs=G4253

Histemi: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...n/lexicon.cfm?

So what is Paul trying to indicate to the Thessalonians? That there are people "over" them? Not at all. Rather, that there are people who are before them in the Lord, i.e. elders who have been walking with the Lord longer, and have served God faithfully for a greater amount of time, and so, are before them, chronologically speaking (implicitly indicating that those who have been walking with the Lord for a longer amount of time ought to be wiser, more mature, more spiritually discerning, and over all, more adept in their calling and ability to be a good example the rest of the flock).

Finally, as regards 1 Corinthians 11:1,

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Note that the Greek word translated "followers" means to be an "imitator". In fact, the Greek word is mimitai, from whence we get not only the word "imitate", but also the words "mime" and "mimic".

Sources:

mimitai: http://biblehub.com/greek/3402.htm

1 Corinthians 11:1: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/11-1.htm

One who imitates as it pertains to Christianity, isn't one who simply marches behind because he or she has been told to by someone else. And they certainly aren't people being driven from behind, either.

Rather, it's someone who can walk in the same pattern, and follow the example. Paul wasn't calling for "followers" the way Jesus called out and said "Follow me" (The Gospels use completely different words. All but one time, the Greek word is akoloutheu. It means "to be in the same way with", i.e. "to accompany or walk the same path". The other word is deute and it means "a summons", i.e. to "come hither".

Rather, Paul was saying, imitate the pattern of my life even as I imitate the pattern of the life of Jesus Christ. It's not an injunction to make the Corinthians subordinate to Paul. Rather, it's an exhortation to encourage the Corinthians that if they will imitate Paul's example, they will in reality be imitating the example Christ Himself laid out for them.

I remember when I taught my niece how to swim. I had her watch me, and follow me in the pool, doing what I did, i.e. recreate my actions in her own body. I gave her instruction, and as she listened, and experimented on her own, she learned to swim in a couple of hours. But guess what! I wasn't "over" as some teacher. The only person "over" her that day was her father, who permitted me the opportunity to teach his daughter how to swim.

It's not different in the Kingdom. No one is "over" anyone else. Only Jesus is "over" the house of God. But there are times when the Lord permits us the opportunity to give instruction, have someone observe us, and recreate what we do spiritually for themselves with their own actions and behaviors, and if what we are instructing is Biblically sound, and if the practice of our faith is mature and legit, and has the seal of the Father upon it, as the person imitates us, they automatically begin imitating Christ, upon Whose life we have patterned our own.

This is world's away from what today's church (in general) attempts to do.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I already stated in my first post that it is more of an issue of having some kind of covering of ministry over you than it is a pastor in every case.

How does this "covering of ministry" work?

[Esaias]

BTW Votive, that was an excellent presentation of exegesis and explanation.

[shazeep]

yes

[KeptByTheWord]

Excellent Votive! I came here this morning prepared to address the issue Bro. Blume raised about being "over" someone, as we had studied it out in our home bible study, but you did a much better job than I could have with it. Thank you!

[mfblume]

Thanks, votive. Will research that more. Also, I noticed it's the rule over others that's the issue, not the person over others.

However, the fact remains, God set ministries up we are to submit to. And they're in people. Submit to one another. I am sure Peter would submit to a twelve year old if the child felt to tell him something in the name of the Lord. Eli submitted to Samuel as a child and wanted to hear what the Lord was telling the child to inform him.

God uses people to whom we must submit.

And, everyone, please note the other scriptures I used as well. Not hearing any response about them.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How does this "covering of ministry" work?

???

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Dear, Mike

I appreciate your sincerely held convictions, and you insistence on going to the Word for everything you're sharing here.

But please let me point something out to you about the verses you quoted, and then make some further points.

In the verses you presented, namely Hebrews 13:7, and Hebrews 13:7, and Hebrews 13:24, there is no use of any word for "over" in the Greek. The phrase "have the rule over" in all three cases, is one Greek word, hegoumenon, and it means "to lead the way, as in going before".

Sources:

Hegoumenon: http://biblehub.com/greek/2233.htm

Hebrews 13:7: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/13-7.htm

Hebrews 13:17: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/13-17.htm

Hebrews 13:24: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/13-24.htm

People who truly lead are not "over", as in above, but rather, are in "front" of. Only do we see in the world's system of governance and organization, that those who "lead" are likewise "over". But the church doesn't, or at least shouldn't, reflect the way the world governs itself.

Compare this to Hebrews 3:6,



Here, there is a Greek word for "over", and it is the preposition epi, which means "(up)on, over, or above".

Source: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=G1909&t=KJV

The same is true in Hebrews 10:21,



It's the same Greek preposition, epi, meaning "(up)on, over, or above".

What this means is that the author of Hebrews, in experiencing inspiration from the Holy Spirit, had the linguistic know-how to use the proper terms to designate intended meaning. When he wanted to express the fact that Jesus, as Son and High Priest, is positionally located OVER and ABOVE His house--that being the Son of God and High Priest is what makes Him so--He had the tools to do so. Therefore, had he, the author of Hebrews, so desired and wanted to, he could have easily expressed the same thing regarding the saints in the church letter on in the letter (i.e. in Hebrews 13:7 and 17 and 24) by using the same Greek preposition, epi.

But he didn't do so. The Holy Spirit didn't inspire the use of epi in Hebrews 13:7 and 17, or 24.

As regards 1 Thessalonians 5:12,



Here, the Greek word isn't epi, either. It's proistamenous, and it means to stand before, from pros meaning "before" and histemi, meaning to "stand".

Sources:

Pros: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...?Strongs=G4253

Histemi: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...n/lexicon.cfm?

So what is Paul trying to indicate to the Thessalonians? That there are people "over" them? Not at all. Rather, that there are people who are before them in the Lord, i.e. elders who have been walking with the Lord longer, and have served God faithfully for a greater amount of time, and so, are before them, chronologically speaking (implicitly indicating that those who have been walking with the Lord for a longer amount of time ought to be wiser, more mature, more spiritually discerning, and over all, more adept in their calling and ability to be a good example the rest of the flock).

Finally, as regards 1 Corinthians 11:1,



Note that the Greek word translated "followers" means to be an "imitator". In fact, the Greek word is mimitai, from whence we get not only the word "imitate", but also the words "mime" and "mimic".

Sources:

mimitai: http://biblehub.com/greek/3402.htm

1 Corinthians 11:1: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/11-1.htm

One who imitates as it pertains to Christianity, isn't one who simply marches behind because he or she has been told to by someone else. And they certainly aren't people being driven from behind, either.

Rather, it's someone who can walk in the same pattern, and follow the example. Paul wasn't calling for "followers" the way Jesus called out and said "Follow me" (The Gospels use completely different words. All but one time, the Greek word is akoloutheu. It means "to be in the same way with", i.e. "to accompany or walk the same path". The other word is deute and it means "a summons", i.e. to "come hither".

Rather, Paul was saying, imitate the pattern of my life even as I imitate the pattern of the life of Jesus Christ. It's not an injunction to make the Corinthians subordinate to Paul. Rather, it's an exhortation to encourage the Corinthians that if they will imitate Paul's example, they will in reality be imitating the example Christ Himself laid out for them.

I remember when I taught my niece how to swim. I had her watch me, and follow me in the pool, doing what I did, i.e. recreate my actions in her own body. I gave her instruction, and as she listened, and experimented on her own, she learned to swim in a couple of hours. But guess what! I wasn't "over" as some teacher. The only person "over" her that day was her father, who permitted me the opportunity to teach his daughter how to swim.

It's not different in the Kingdom. No one is "over" anyone else. Only Jesus is "over" the house of God. But there are times when the Lord permits us the opportunity to give instruction, have someone observe us, and recreate what we do spiritually for themselves with their own actions and behaviors, and if what we are instructing is Biblically sound, and if the practice of our faith is mature and legit, and has the seal of the Father upon it, as the person imitates us, they automatically begin imitating Christ, upon Whose life we have patterned our own.

This is world's away from what today's church (in general) attempts to do.

Very good post.

I would say that for most part it is a terminology issue. I wouldn't use the phrase covering for ministry, but I don't think Bro. Blume was implying any Lordship over the church by his terminology. If I submit to someone I am in a sense placing them above myself. Not that they have more value or worth. It is freewill thing. By submitting myself to the word of God through earthly instructors "I am covered" (or protected) not by the pastor persay, but by the word that the pastor is representative of. Many people are very touchy on this subject because of the many manipulations that have taken place in the past and some struggle with pride. I think we can go to far to the right or left on this subject. The pastor, elder, bishop however you define the role, is not to control people's lives, but only to help in people's spiritual growth by the leading of the Holy Ghost and the written word of God.

P.S. individuals can think to highly of their pastor, to the point they don't question and search the word for their self. Others can struggle with a independent and rebellious spirit who don't want to follow anyone and choose to go to the school of hard knocks.

[YounginHope]

"P.S. individuals can think to highly of their pastor, to the point they don't question and search the word for their self. Others can struggle with a independent and rebellious spirit who don't want to follow anyone and choose to go to the school of hard knocks."

This is truth, imo. Almost to the point that they believe the pastor has the ability to save or condemn to hell. I fall in the other category where I'm probably too independent and suffer because of it.