Elephant in the room - accusation of judging - Page 9

shazeep · #81 05-31-2016, 01:43 PM

Picking up the cross is denying oneself. It has nothing to do with saying someone is lost or not. It has everything to do with crucifying the things in our lives that hinder God from working. Foremost sin is crucified. Self promotion. I already laid out that there is nothing I see in me that makes me better than a muslim. I cannot attribute anything in me in contrast to a muslim that personally makes me better. Taking the cross deals with SELF. And as far as SELF is concerned, I have nothing to point to that makes me feel better than a muslim, in fact thinking I am better than a muslim does not even enter my mind! I believe and know the bible THAT MUCH that it's not a matter of what qualities muslims or myself have, but rather what the object of our faith is. And the cross of Jesus makes the difference. You speak more of OUR crosses by FAR than the cross of Jesus. In fact, I cannot recall ANYTHING you ever said that focuses on the cross of Jesus. As I see it, your religion is a cross carrying religion that involves nothing to do with Jesus Christ's cross. And THAT makes you think carrying the cross can be done by muslims because you think they can deny themselves in some areas, and not even believe Jesus died.

do you think the GS would be more accepted if he agreed to this? If he did not agree, would he be less saved?

shazeep · #82 05-31-2016, 01:47 PM

So what you do write is unclear.

ok, "please clarify this" will solve that.

shazeep · #83 05-31-2016, 01:57 PM

I really mean it when I say people can make all the claims they want, but it is ONLY what GOD sees in their hearts that determines if they are really saved. See, here is what you miss.

Ty, Oh Great One; may a seeker ask how you justify "all Catholics are lost" in this context? (note that i cut off the bottom of this paragraph, which says that we can only go by what people say, as i get that you mean WE an only go by what people say, which is patently untrue and also unscriptural, but one hairball at a time.)

ok, i see you fixed it here

Even Jesus said words are akin to fruit in the sense that we can tell a person's heart by their words. Though a person may SAY a good thing they rehearsed since they know people want to hear that good thing, but it's not really in their hearts, eventually the REAL words form the heart come out over time.

and it is the fact that out of the heart, the mouth speaks reflects that saying "All Catholics are lost" will also be reflected in other areas of your ministry that keeps me coming here, regardless of how well you might treat a disadvantaged Muslim you happen to run across, which i don't doubt in your case, and may be all that matters; for the laity at least.

shazeep · #84 05-31-2016, 02:17 PM

Quote:
And this suggests--practically demands--some change of behavior on our part; we treat those we deem "lost" differently than we do those we deem "saved," if for no other reason than that we have made this judgement; and it is not for the better.

Wrong.

you might wish it was wrong, and you might even convince me that it is wrong in your case, but it is not wrong, Mike. It is like saying "stating that all Catholics are lost does not mean that that sentiment will be reflected in other areas of my ministry." If nothing else, you will preach to those you deem "lost," and maybe be quicker to point out where they are "wrong" in your opinion, even when they can demonstrate how they might be right, etc.

What you may not realize is the damage done by your opinion, tacit acceptance of drone bombing civilians, etc.

shazeep · #85 05-31-2016, 02:29 PM

...I already laid out that there is nothing I see in me that makes me better than a muslim. I cannot attribute anything in me in contrast to a muslim that personally makes me better. Taking the cross deals with SELF. And as far as SELF is concerned, I have nothing to point to that makes me feel better than a muslim, in fact thinking I am better than a muslim does not even enter my mind![/I]

no, of course not, you make no value judgements in condemning them to hell, it is simply that they lack your understanding. You don't think maybe that this is a little bit hypocritical?

shazeep · #86 05-31-2016, 02:35 PM

I believe and know the bible THAT MUCH that it's not a matter of what qualities muslims or myself have, but rather what the object of our faith is. And the cross of Jesus makes the difference. You speak more of OUR crosses by FAR than the cross of Jesus. In fact, I cannot recall ANYTHING you ever said that focuses on the cross of Jesus. As I see it, your religion is a cross carrying religion that involves nothing to do with Jesus Christ's cross. And THAT makes you think carrying the cross can be done by muslims because you think they can deny themselves in some areas, and not even believe Jesus died.

In reality, the biggest part of carrying the cross is ignored by them. And that is denying themselves of the belief that they can be good enough to go to heaven.

ok well as i see it, you are enmeshed in a pretty violent form of Jesus Cult, which is not the same as faith in Christ, but better people than me have already written about that. I'll be sure and let the GS know that he cannot be saved, despite Christ holding him up as an example.

shazeep · #87 05-31-2016, 02:47 PM

Howso? I cast away all thining that my good works can save me. I looked ONLY to the cross for salvation! I cast away all inklings that my good works earn me salvation for heaven. So how do i not cast away all thoughts that my good works can earn salvation if i cast away all thoughts that my good works can earn salvation?

i suggest that there is a sense in which you would not touch the cross with a ten foot pole, even as you write books on the subject, but God would have to show you that i guess. And take that for what it is worth, we all fall short.

i gotta run, and kudos for having the stones to express your opinions here, btw. I would suggest that your opinions will agree with the world's much less someday, but then that is surely also true of me. But i am not a pastor, ok? And i would like to reiterate that there is another Bible, if you read with different eyes, that will lead you away from "believe as i do or be damned," which is a lie designed to appeal to our narcissism, and unfortunately works great.

aegsm76 · #88 05-31-2016, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

...I already laid out that there is nothing I see in me that makes me better than a muslim. I cannot attribute anything in me in contrast to a muslim that personally makes me better. Taking the cross deals with SELF. And as far as SELF is concerned, I have nothing to point to that makes me feel better than a muslim, in fact thinking I am better than a muslim does not even enter my mind![/I]

no, of course not, you make no value judgements in condemning them to hell, it is simply that they lack your understanding. You don't think maybe that this is a little bit hypocritical?

Sorry to jump in the middle of this, but this is a very disturbing post, shaz.
Basically you are saying that Christianity is not any better than any other religion.
So, Christ death on the Cross was of none effect.
This is truly "Christianity without the Cross".

mfblume · #89 05-31-2016, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Sorry to jump in the middle of this, but this is a very disturbing post, shaz.
Basically you are saying that Christianity is not any better than any other religion.
So, Christ death on the Cross was of none effect.
This is truly "Christianity without the Cross".

That's the point I was looking to express.

mfblume · #90 05-31-2016, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

I really mean it when I say people can make all the claims they want, but it is ONLY what GOD sees in their hearts that determines if they are really saved. See, here is what you miss. And I said this before as well. We can ONLY go by what people say.

well, you really mean it when you say that people must do those works in your "church" in order to "be saved," too;

No. I never said that and neither do I believe it.

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i am not suggesting that you are being disingenuous, at least not consciously--i am suggesting that you have accepted a lie, that let's admit you did not get from Scripture on your own. You went to some "Bible College."

What's the lie?

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And wadr if you admit that all you can go by is what people say, then i don't get why all the resistance @ 'you accept verbal declarations as proof?'

I am saying that is as good as we humans can get from other humans about one's salvation. But I say that with the conclusion of the matter being IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT OPINIONS WE HAVE in the end. It's what God thinks. I presume no more than that.

Quote:

My mom is talking on the phone, doing it right now! "Is she a believer? Oh, that's good." So apparently what they say, even once removed, is sufficient.

"Apparently" is presumption.

It matter snot what we think. Do you get it this time? Our opinions do not matter. It matters what God sees. My job is not to know if they are saved or not. My job is to let them know what the word says about salvation and tell them they need to obey it. Period. After that, it's God's job to determine if they're saved. Not mine. But those who distinctly deny the cross even occurred are lost according to the word.

Quote:

I don't mean to say that this is universally a "bad" thing, people are known by their reputations, and this is one way we disseminate opinions about them, but the point is that they are just that--opinions.

Exactly. And who cares about them? Not me. I can only know if in my heart I believed or not.