It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Slithering Satan
Pounding At My TARDIS Door
Cain Stole My Sonic

You're welcome

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I feel like I'm in an alternate reality AFF where nothing makes sense.

If thou hast run with the clowns, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with the circus?

Sister, most times forum land has to be dealt with a stake, a crucifix, and a whole lot of garlic.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

If thou hast run with the clowns, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with the circus?

Sister, most times forum land has to be dealt with a stake, a crucifix, and a whole lot of garlic.

you are a funny man Brother EB!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The Bible says "Sin is the transgression of the law". It also says "whatsoever is without faith is sin" (which is actually a corollary to the first statement, since faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, and since man is to live by every word of God, etc).

The Bible does not say "sin is a force distinct from sinful choices, actions, thoughts, etc." There are not two definitions of "sin", there is one: transgression of the law. Sin cannot be identified or recognized apart from the law of God identifying sin (Romans 7:7). Otherwise, anything could be made to be sin and there would be no objective standard for determining what is sin and what is not sin.

There is that sense of sin, but there is still the biblical's use of the force of sin. These verses prove it (there is not way to look at SIN in these verses as simply a transgression of the law):

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Romans 6:12-14 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. (13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7, if pressed contrary to the whole of scripture to teach some force of sin independent of acts of sin, will nevertheless also teach that people aren't responsible for their sins if they agree with God that those acts are wrong (v20), and that all people are spiritually alive before learning right from wrong (v9), which are impossibilities.

Incorrect.

Paul said there is an alternative to the force of sin ruling our lives. Taht's the whole point of the chapter.

Romans 6:16-19 clearly and unambiguously teaches the voluntary nature of sinning. Romans 7 must be understood within context. Romans 5 does NOT teach that "sin passed upon all men because of Adam", but rather that "death passed upon all men BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED."

"FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED" may mean "because in that sense all have sinned."

Romans 7 is designed to show that sinners, who have voluntarily sold themselves to practice unrighteousness (Romans 6:16-19), are owned by sin and are legally bound to it as a woman is to her husband or a slave is to his master. The Jews under the old covenant did not obey God, and could never obtain righteousness through the deeds of the law, which pronounced death upon them. As Jews they were bound to it until death. But Christ died to free all under the old covenant and loose them to be married to another, that is, loose them to enter the new covenant. But under the old covenant, they could not obtain righteousness, because the commandments of God simply stirred up their own disobedient passions to which they yielded, thus bringing them into bondage to sin. As Romans 8 says, the law was weak through the flesh, but Christ's death accomplishes what the law could not do.

It says far more than that! It says there is a force of sin Paul was unable to resist, and he said it was the reason he could not do the good things he willed to do. He blamed it on sin and NOT HIMSELF. That is the reason he speaks of TWO WAYS to serve God. Oldness of letter (which is futile since the force of sin will have the sway) or newness of Spirit. newness of Spirit is where the Spirit is empowering us to overcome the force of sin. How else can SIN slay Paul, and Paul say it was not him that was the problem but SIN that dwelled in him?

Romans 7 is applicable to anyone, even saved people, who do nto know how to rely on the empowerment of the Spirit. Gal 5 proves it! Gal 5 says the same thing and speaks ot born again people:

Galatians 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. (18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Compared to:

Romans 7:15-20 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. (16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

If Romans teaches an inborn "sin force" it also teaches that regeneration eliminates that "sin force" (Romans 8:1-11).

No. Regeneration is the means by which we get the Spirit in us that CAN overcome that force. But we have to consciously in faith lean on the Spirit of God in us so we can cooperate it with it when it starts to empower us. Ro 6:13 is how we do that. MOST ALL believers never learn this.

But the fact is, sin is the voluntary surrender of the will to passions and desires to do that which is forbidden by the commands of God. All are guilty, not because all are human, or have a degenerated nature (which we do, by the way), but all are guilty because all HAVE SINNED (Romans 3:23).

It is that, PLUS MORE... it is also a force in context of passages that speak of it in that manner. See my list above.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

The Book of Romans emphasizes the absolute sinfulness of sin and our absolute inability to absolve ourselves from sin on our own and salvation by the Grace of God through our faith in God.

That is a given. But what about the notion I proposed saying that sin is a force?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is a given. But what about the notion I proposed saying that sin is a force?

I read your explanation above. It sounds like an interesting perspective.

I need some clarification of what you mean by sin being a "force".

Do you mean that it is an "energy", a subsistent "thing" of it's own?
Or do you see sin being a force, like that which are laws of nature? Something like, gravity, for example?
Is sin a spiritual law that is in play, and is even dominant, in specific circumstances?

Can you clarify?

[Amanah]

wouldn't the force of sin be:

Romans 7:21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

There is that sense of sin, but there is still the biblical's use of the force of sin. These verses prove it (there is not way to look at SIN in these verses as simply a transgression of the law):

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Romans 6:12-14 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. (13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


Incorrect.

Paul said there is an alternative to the force of sin ruling our lives. Taht's the whole point of the chapter.



"FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED" may mean "because in that sense all have sinned."



It says far more than that! It says there is a force of sin Paul was unable to resist, and he said it was the reason he could not do the good things he willed to do. He blamed it on sin and NOT HIMSELF. That is the reason he speaks of TWO WAYS to serve God. Oldness of letter (which is futile since the force of sin will have the sway) or newness of Spirit. newness of Spirit is where the Spirit is empowering us to overcome the force of sin. How else can SIN slay Paul, and Paul say it was not him that was the problem but SIN that dwelled in him?

Romans 7 is applicable to anyone, even saved people, who do nto know how to rely on the empowerment of the Spirit. Gal 5 proves it! Gal 5 says the same thing and speaks ot born again people:

Galatians 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. (18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Compared to:

Romans 7:15-20 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. (16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

No. Regeneration is the means by which we get the Spirit in us that CAN overcome that force. But we have to consciously in faith lean on the Spirit of God in us so we can cooperate it with it when it starts to empower us. Ro 6:13 is how we do that. MOST ALL believers never learn this.



It is that, PLUS MORE... it is also a force in context of passages that speak of it in that manner. See my list above.

Short on time, but a quick look makes me think you actually proved one of my points here.

Paul speaks of a LAW of sin, not a FORCE. Moreover, he clearly stated in ch 6 that bondage to sin begins with a voluntary act of the individual.

Be back later.

[Aquila]

So...the force made me do it? Lol

At least if it is my nature, it's still me to blame. Even if I found myself incapable of denying my flesh.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So...the force made me do it? Lol

At least if it is my nature, it's still me to blame. Even if I found myself incapable of denying my flesh.

How can you be to blame? Please explain "blame" in the context of involuntary actions.

If your child was at the dinner table and threw up all over the place, would he be to blame? If he stuck his finger down his throat to regurgitate on purpose? What about if he had stomach virus? Or just too much gas? Or a medical condition?

Where does blame actually come into the picture?