Help! Tormented dreams

[ModestMama]

Originally Posted by Esaias

There are three main problems with much of what is called "deliverance ministry". Four, actually.

1. Too many people involved in it have a REALLY unhealthy infatuation and fascination with "evil spirits". Talk to any santero (practitioner of Santeria) or voodoo practitioner, or any indigenous third worlder, and you will find the same mind set as is found among most "deliverance ministries" - pure superstition, evil spirits under every rock and behind every tree, EVERY problem is either gremlins, demons, or witchcraft, life is lived in the darkness of superstitious FEAR.


2. They promote "demon casting" for things that require old fashioned repentance. Cheating on your wife? Hooked on porn? Smoking dope? Lying all the time? Those aren't demons, those are SINS, and you can writhe, roll, foam at the mouth and flop at the altar till Jesus comes and you'll still bust hell wide open unless you REPENT.

3. The inculcate occultic thought processes, where the Holy Ghost winds being "the Force", the deliverance minister becomes a special-ed Jedi master, any who doubt what the Jedi says are just not privy to the ESOTERIC knowledge and wisdom known only to the special-ed "initiates" and "illuminated ones", life becomes a live action role play (LARP) game like Dungeons and Dragons with nonstop Walter Mitty fantasies of "spiritual warfare" that create a closed self-propelled feedback loop of delusions and silliness, and a focus on learning special prayer techniques, soaking meditation, "practicing the presence of God", "entering the throne room of the Shekinah Presence" and "unleashing" or "calling down" the "power of God" which is nothing but Wiccan "cone of fire" or trad satanist "raising the devil" methods couched in Christianese. ETC.

4. Deliverance ministries become traveling exorcists, everyone starts thinking they need to get to ABC Deliverance Ministry in order to get fixed up, man-worship takes over, etc. People actually bounce from deliverance ministry to deliverance ministry for every little problem, like junkies needing a Benny Hinn fix. I've met them, they are wacked out, Biblically illiterate, unstable, double minded, often have little respect for and use for their local assembly, and often don't contribute much to their local assembly, look down on others who aren't sold on their hype, etc. etc.

Are there demons? Yes. How much detail did God see fit to give us about dealing with demons? Basically, pray, fast if needed, and command them to go in Jesus name.

That's pretty much it.

Modern deliverance ministries have essentially become like medieval demonologists of the Roman Catholic Church.

REAL deliverance is found in old fasioned prayer, fasting, sanctification, and Bible preaching.

Yea none of that is what i envisioned in a deliverance ministry.
My thoughts were just having the spirit of discernment in use and wait for God to guide me , if need be. Nothing i pictured is as you describe, thats cooky. All glory belongs to God.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by ModestMama

Yea none of that is what i envisioned in a deliverance ministry.
My thoughts were just having the spirit of discernment in use and wait for God to guide me , if need be. Nothing i pictured is as you describe, thats cooky. All glory belongs to God.

Stay in the Word and in prayer, and you'll be used by God to do whatever He wants.

[houston]

Originally Posted by ModestMama

Yea none of that is what i envisioned in a deliverance ministry.
My thoughts were just having the spirit of discernment in use and wait for God to guide me , if need be. Nothing i pictured is as you describe, thats cooky. All glory belongs to God.

That is where you end up (eventually) if you get into the stuff Aquila posted.

The people are nuts. You'll come across people who are (supposedly) saved that need an exorcism. And it's probably their 5th or 6th exorcism since they were (supposedly) saved. I corresponded with a kid who thought every burp and yawn released demons. You CAN'T correct these people. As Easaias stated, they (claim to) have this special knowledge that isn't found in the Bible anywhere.

IMO, many of these people are anointed with nothing other than the spirit of pithon/divination as was the damsel in the book of Acts. It can sound, look, and feel like the Holy Ghost if you seek chills and thrills and have no discernment.
Pithon came after me shortly after the vague incident (my fault) that I mentioned earlier in the thread.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

There are three main problems with much of what is called "deliverance ministry". Four, actually.

1. Too many people involved in it have a REALLY unhealthy infatuation and fascination with "evil spirits". Talk to any santero (practitioner of Santeria) or voodoo practitioner, or any indigenous third worlder, and you will find the same mind set as is found among most "deliverance ministries" - pure superstition, evil spirits under every rock and behind every tree, EVERY problem is either gremlins, demons, or witchcraft, life is lived in the darkness of superstitious FEAR.

I agree. Not everything is a spirit. However, we mustn't disregard things that very well might be a spirit. There has to be a healthy balance.

2. They promote "demon casting" for things that require old fashioned repentance. Cheating on your wife? Hooked on porn? Smoking dope? Lying all the time? Those aren't demons, those are SINS, and you can writhe, roll, foam at the mouth and flop at the altar till Jesus comes and you'll still bust hell wide open unless you REPENT.

I've seen this and I couldn't agree more. Sin is sin. And the only remedy for sin is repentance. In my opinion, evidence of demonic influence is in various maladies, sicknesses, afflictions, mental/emotional turmoil, and COMPULSIVE sinful behavior that nearly takes one over.

3. The inculcate occultic thought processes, where the Holy Ghost winds being "the Force", the deliverance minister becomes a special-ed Jedi master, any who doubt what the Jedi says are just not privy to the ESOTERIC knowledge and wisdom known only to the special-ed "initiates" and "illuminated ones", life becomes a live action role play (LARP) game like Dungeons and Dragons with nonstop Walter Mitty fantasies of "spiritual warfare" that create a closed self-propelled feedback loop of delusions and silliness, and a focus on learning special prayer techniques, soaking meditation, "practicing the presence of God", "entering the throne room of the Shekinah Presence" and "unleashing" or "calling down" the "power of God" which is nothing but Wiccan "cone of fire" or trad satanist "raising the devil" methods couched in Christianese. ETC.

I've heard the same thing said about those who believe in speaking in tongues, and we know all of that is exaggerated criticism.

I will say that the Holy Ghost is not a "force", it is the very Spirit of God. Now, with the Holy Ghost comes "power". That power isn't a "force" it is anointed fire of God like power that we can call upon, that is born of His presence.

Walking in the supernatural isn't the same as life being an action role playing (LARP) game like Dungeons and Dragons with nonstop Walter Mitty fantasies of "spiritual warfare". It comes and goes as the need arises. Your life might be church gatherings, car repair, shopping, chores, and barbeques for several weeks... and then circumstances suddenly have you confronting evil spirits, speaking in tongues, prophesying, having Words of Knowledge or Wisdom, laying hands on the sick, etc... then it goes back to "normal" for a season. We worship a man who was God incarnate. He cast out devils, healed the sick, raised the dead, and challenged us to have faith to do the same and more. Our Savior was even nailed to a cross and rose from the dead promising that we'd receive power after His Spirit came to dwell in us. If our lives aren't a tapestry woven around the supernatural moving of the Holy Spirit, something is wrong with us.

4. Deliverance ministries become traveling exorcists, everyone starts thinking they need to get to ABC Deliverance Ministry in order to get fixed up, man-worship takes over, etc. People actually bounce from deliverance ministry to deliverance ministry for every little problem, like junkies needing a Benny Hinn fix. I've met them, they are wacked out, Biblically illiterate, unstable, double minded, often have little respect for and use for their local assembly, and often don't contribute much to their local assembly, look down on others who aren't sold on their hype, etc. etc.

That's a pretty scathing judgment. But, I'll admit, I've seen it too. If a deliverance minister doesn't leave an individual equipped to defeat spiritual attacks on their lives or families, they create a dependency. The goal as I understood it was to demonstrate the reality and power of the name of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, and then equip the saint of God to do the same. If you need to seek out a deliverance minister like some groupie... they've failed you.

Are there demons? Yes. How much detail did God see fit to give us about dealing with demons? Basically, pray, fast if needed, and command them to go in Jesus name.

That's pretty much it.

I believe Scripture reveals much more than this. But one has to read it slowly and contemplate what it is saying. For example,

Matthew 12:43-45
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

This very short passage is chock-full of information regarding unclean spirits. Here's what one can draw from this:

- Evil spirits that are cast out of an individual find themselves in a disembodied state. In this state, it as though they are in a desert, thirsting, seeking rest and refreshment, and they can't find it. The implication is that they cannot satisfy their cravings unless they have a body.
- An unclean spirit in this circumstance will determine to return to its "house", the man it was cast out of. This implies that the spirit's arrogance views the human being as it's own possession to dwell in that it might satisfy it's sinful desires.
- When the evil spirit returns, it finds that the man's life is in order, clean, and garnished... but empty. If the individual isn't filled with the Spirit, the spirit can freely return. However, if one is filled with the Spirit of God, the spirit will not find the individual's life "empty" and will be forced to continue looking, for God has taken up residence.
- Should the individual not be filled with the spirit and the spirit returns, it will bring additional spirits with it to secure its stronghold in the individual's life and to drive the individual further into demonized wickedness.
- Jesus saw this as mirroring what was to befall Israel should they refuse to accept the Gospel and be filled with the Spirit. Satan himself would return in full force to destroy the nation once Jesus and the Apostles were no longer with them. And who can deny that in AD 70, all Hell broke loose on the nation of Israel leaving them absolutely desolate and the temple destroyed.

TO BE CONTINUED...

[navygoat1998]

[QUOTE=Esaias;1493610]
REAL deliverance is found in old fashioned prayer, fasting, sanctification, and Bible preaching.[/QUOTE

Right here is the truth of overcoming!

[votivesoul]

Houston,

I am really impressed with the depth and discernment the Lord is granting you in this thread. It's awesome to see God using you this way. Keep it up!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Houston,

I am really impressed with the depth and discernment the Lord is granting you in this thread. It's awesome to see God using you this way. Keep it up!

+1

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

It's always interesting to me how much people know about evil spirits, and only ever and often "discern" them, but how little they know about, and only and often discern regarding righteous spirits, that is, angels.

I've told many a young man who was new in the Lord to stop focusing on the Kingdom of Satan and get your mind on Jesus. It's amazing how easy it is to get caught up in this stuff and get sidetracked.

It's so easy to get entrapped in that since it's fascinating to the natural mind.

[Aquila]

CONTINUED...

See, just that one passage above contains far more information regarding evil spirits than merely "pray, fast if needed, and command them to go in Jesus name". One simply has to read it slowly and allow the Spirit of God to draw out the deeper implications of what is being said. It's all right there. Here's another example:

Matthew 8:28-32
28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

What can we draw out of this passage?

- When Jesus is present, devils reveal themselves. They cry out and act-out from fear. This is seen on multiple occasions.
- The demon spirits in this case reveal that Jesus had the authority and power to bind them and cast them into the abyss at that very moment. If He didn't, they wouldn't have feared it. Now, the very same Spirit and power that was in Christ Jesus (God incarnate) is within us. Some would say that by implication we too have the authority to bind a spirit and cast it out into the abyss to await judgment and so as a result it cannot harm us or others again. I said that "some would say" because I'm still uncertain at this point as to if that is truly a reality, but clearly, it's an implied possibility given the whole of Scripture regarding our authority in Christ.
- Fearing being cast into the pit, the demons pleaded with Christ to be cast into a heard of nearby swine. And astonishingly, Christ himself granted the request and cast them into the swine. This would imply that evil spirits can not only be cast out, but can be bound to something else. Here it was a heard of swine. If we have the same power and authority as Christ when confronting evil spirits, is it remotely possible that we too can cast evil spirits into something else? There is historical precedent for this line of logic. In ancient times Jews believed that an unclean spirit could be cast out of a person and imprisoned not only a heard of swine, but also into objects. They would bind the spirits to a rock and cast it into the sea, or bind it to something nearby and then dispose of the item by burning it. Some spirits were bound to location. This is the original thought behind the origin of the Dybbuk and how it could be confined or imprisoned in a doll or shoe box. To the Jews, and I know this is nothing but lore, these items were considered "cursed" and were to be disposed of. However, if per chance they were not disposed of anyone taking possession of the item after the fact could suffer oppression and possibly possession as the evil spirit tried to free itself from confinement. While all of this is developed reasoning drawn from implication, the fact that Jesus did indeed command the spirits to depart into swine clearly demonstrates that evil spirits can bound into something else other than their original host or dwelling, even IF it was only done on this one occasion.
- Even animals have a sensitivity to evil spirits. These swine would rather drown themselves than be the hosts of evil spirits. Which sadly demonstrates more sense than many human beings who actually traffic in spirits and seek to be hosts for channeling and other spiritual foolishness.

So, from the implications found in our second passage we learn even more about the possibilities involved in spiritual warfare than we gathered from the implications of the first passage. I could go on and on with multiple passages, going verse by verse, drawing from the rather clear implications of what is transpiring IN THE TEXT. Thus, it is my firm conviction that Scripture reveals far more about this subject than merely, "pray, fast if needed, and command them to go in Jesus name". Let me ask, when you command them to "go"... where are they going??? Did you just cast a spirit out so that it could freely return or did you cast it out that it might afflict another? Most people don't think it through. They just repeat and mimic verses they have memorized the same way Trinitarians repeat and mimic Matthew 28:19. They don't allow the Spirit to draw them deeper into the deeper implications of what is written.

Modern deliverance ministries have essentially become like medieval demonologists of the Roman Catholic Church.

I can understand why one might think so. Or... might those called into "deliverance ministry" simply be seeing more in the Scriptures than what most people take the time to see?

REAL deliverance is found in old fasioned prayer, fasting, sanctification, and Bible preaching.

Is that what we see in the book of Acts???

People seeking deliverance from evil spirits under the ministry of the Apostles:

Acts 5:16
There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Unclean spirits crying out (see implication drawn from the second passage above), came out of those possessed with them under the authority and deliverance ministry of the Apostles:

Acts 8:7
For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

And then there is the agitation of the spirit of divination that mocked Paul in Macedonia:

Acts 16:16-18
16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Demons were even cast out from the residual anointing and power left on the clothing worn by Paul:

Acts 19:12
So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Each of the passages above illustrate that confronting the reality of evil spirits was common under the Apostles as they advanced the Kingdom of God. We have as many references to it as baptism, if not more. In addition, there are plenty of implications from each passage that I've not even discussed yet that reveals even more about spiritual warfare and the nature and behavior of spirits. Just to wet your lips with an example,

Acts 16:18
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Notice, this spirit didn't depart immediately. It departed within the hour. Anyone wish to explain WHY? The implication is in the text itself.

The Bible clearly tells us far, far more than just "pray, fast if needed, and command them to go in Jesus name". It also indicates that far more was to be done regarding evil spirits than, "old fasioned prayer, fasting, sanctification, and Bible preaching." There was a deliberate and intentional engagement of evil spirits transpiring as the Gospel was preached. In fact, the end results of such mass deliverance were masses of souls being saved as a result of the power demonstrated.

While I don't disagree that the things you noted are foundational. They are only the foundation. Much more can be built upon that foundation if one simply studies and contemplates the Word through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

[Esaias]

There is historical precedent for this line of logic. In ancient times Jews believed that an unclean spirit could be cast out of a person and imprisoned not only a heard of swine, but also into objects. They would bind the spirits to a rock and cast it into the sea, or bind it to something nearby and then dispose of the item by burning it. Some spirits were bound to location. This is the original thought behind the origin of the Dybbuk and how it could be confined or imprisoned in a doll or shoe box.

I rest my case.