Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Military leadership? Sister Alvear you are wrong.

Jdg 9:53-54

"And a certain woman cast a piece of a millstone upon Abimelech's head, and all to brake his skull. Then he called hastily unto the young man his armourbearer, and said unto him, Draw thy sword, and slay me, THAT MEN SAY NOT OF ME, A WOMAN SLEW HIM. And his young man thrust him through, and he died."

It was a disgrace to have a woman kill a man in battle. Therefore we understand that Deborah being a judge was an indication of where Israel was spiritually. In other words Israel's condition was so bad that a woman was in a MAN'S POSITION.

Lord bless you Sister and your husband

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

Yeah, it was a disgrace. Some men were disgraced by a woman killing them. That's what Jael did.

[TheRationalist]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

During the time Deborah was a judge, Israel was a mess.

Mr Benincasa,

During the majority of Israel's history it was "a mess"

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

whatever...however it happened Israel had rest for 40 years. I do not think the exact date or dates in this account is all that important the fact that she existed and judged speaks for itself. She left Israel in peace speaks of a very wise woman.
I thin Deborah could be compared to Samuel in her ability to use prophecy and her great wisdom...

Sis Alvear, with all due respect, you made the claim about Deborah brought 40 years of peace to Israel. After being shown your claim is in error, should you just pass that off with “whatever…however”? If you’re going to use Deborah to validate women being in church leadership, which you do, then you should be able to substantiate your claim. If you can’t, then you cannot use it for such purpose.

Deborah’s existence is not what's in question. Rather it’s why did God use her and what role did she play in His plan for her generation? These are the key points. It is one thing to say God used Deborah. Without debate we know that He did. It is another to say He did so to make a point. The Bible clearly shows that Deborah was used by God to indict Israel for their depraved spiritual condition. What this means to the discussion at hand is that Deborah is not an example true Church leadership. Consequently she cannot be used to prove the argument you’re trying to make.

And finally, to compare Deborah to Samuel is without any biblical example. You are making her a hero. But the Bible does not. Samuel anointed men to be Kings. Deborah indicted men for not acting as men of faith.

Sis Alvear, there is two ways of determining the meaning of biblical text. The first is called “exegesis,” and the second is called “eisegesis.” The former is the interpretation and understanding of a text on the basis of the text itself. The later is to interpret the meaning of scripture on the basis of one’s feelings. If one uses exegesis, then they are more apt to arrive at a correct hermeneutic of the text. But eisegesis seldom arrives at such a conclusion, mostly because it is more inclined to interpret according to one’s personal preferences. I hope you will restudy the issue of women’s roles in the Church and gather together what the Bible actually does say rather than what you feel it says. This—again—does not mean women play no role in the Church. It simply means that they, like all other members of the Body of Christ, are to operate within the boundaries of God’s will.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Deborah’s existence is not what's in question. Rather it’s why did God use her and what role did she play in His plan for her generation? These are the key points. It is one thing to say God used Deborah. Without debate we know that He did. It is another to say He did so to make a point. The Bible clearly shows that Deborah was used by God to indict Israel for their depraved spiritual condition. What this means to the discussion at hand is that Deborah is not an example true Church leadership. Consequently she cannot be used to prove the argument you’re trying to make.

.

TK,

Why is it that regardless of the reasoning that God may have for calling women TODAY, it is oftentimes dismissed without consideration that it may be valid? Many times women preachers/pastors are villified, called names and walking upstream when if these arguments are correct, God is calling women because of the failures of men? I don't really care what the reasons that God calls women are, but when men vilify women instead of looking within and asking "If God calls women because men fail what are we doing wrong?" I see a failure in men and not the other way around.

Too often, men want to blame the woman who is preaching and stomp her out as if that solves the issue. Don't kill or vilify the messenger. Look to see why God calls women in the first place and deal with the issue.

[TK Burk]

.:BUMP:.

Originally Posted by TK Burk

The Bible speaks of women being chosen to serve in the Church. Nowhere are they said to operate as an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, or teacher. However it does mention women of approved character and piety being involved in ministering within the church to certain needs and to other women. Such “ministering” does not involve having any authority over their own husbands or over other men in the congregation. Paul mentions a woman’s role in ministry in his epistle to Titus.

Titus 2:3-5
(3) The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
(4) That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
(5) To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Their service was regarded as very important to the Kingdom of God. In History of the First Century, Mosheim speaks about these women as follows: “The Eastern Churches elected deaconesses, and chose for that purpose, matrons, or widows, of eminent sanctity, who also ministered to the necessities of the poor, and performed several other offices, that tended to order and decency in the Church.”

Paul mentions such labor in his epistle to the church at Philippi.

Philippians 4:3
(3) And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow laborers, whose names are in the book of life.

Here are a few biblical examples of how such women served in the Kingdom of God:
• The Shunamite women ministered to Elisha (II Kings 4)
• Martha served the Lord and His Disciples (Luke 10:38-42; John 12:2, 26)
• After Peter’s mother-in-law was healed, she ministered to Jesus (Matthew 8:14-15; Mark 1:31)
• Certain women ministered to Jesus: Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children (Matthew 27:55-56)
• Joanna, the wife of Herod’s stewards, Susanna, and many others also ministered to Jesus (Luke 8:1-3)
• Dorcas ministered to the needs of the poor (Acts 9:36-40)
• Paul asked the Church at Rome to help Phebe in whatever she was doing. She was a deaconesses and servant at the Church at Cenchrea (Romans 16:1-2)

These women played a fundamental role in the Kingdom of God. Their service was a service to God. But what must be noted is that none of their roles were ever said to involve positions in the five-fold ministry. Those positions were limited to men that were called and who met the biblical qualifications.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by ILG

TK,

Why is it that regardless of the reasoning that God may have for calling women TODAY, it is oftentimes dismissed without consideration that it may be valid? Many times women preachers/pastors are villified, called names and walking upstream when if these arguments are correct, God is calling women because of the failures of men? I don't really care what the reasons that God calls women are, but when men vilify women instead of looking within and asking "If God calls women because men fail what are we doing wrong?" I see a failure in men and not the other way around.

Too often, men want to blame the woman who is preaching and stomp her out as if that solves the issue. Don't kill or vilify the messenger. Look to see why God calls women in the first place and deal with the issue.

Okay, please show me where Jesus or His apostles called women into the five-fold ministry. Thanks.

[TheRationalist]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Okay, please show me where Jesus or His apostles called women into the five-fold ministry. Thanks.

I believe Apostolics hold that "the five-fold ministry" includes prophet.

So would that not include Acts 21:8-9

[ILG]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Okay, please show me where Jesus or His apostles called women into the five-fold ministry. Thanks.

Let's not even go there. I have my arguments but we will just go in circles. You have to admit that God used women....in Deborah, Hulda, Phoebe etc. The question is WHY did God do this? Especially in the case of Deborah, he used a woman MIGHTILY in leadership. This cannot be denied except by those who would like to take a penknife to the chapter. So, why did God raise Deborah up and use her this way? Was it because men failed as so many claim? If that is why God used Deborah (and it may be) WHY vilify women who are used of God when it is the MEN who are failing?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by TheRationalist

I believe Apostolics hold that "the five-fold ministry" includes prophet.

So would that not include Acts 21:8?

I believe you're referring to Philip's daughters in Acts 21:9.

(Acts 21:9) And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

There is a difference between prophesying and being a prophet.

Also, "prophet" is a masculine noun (G4396). Paul’s usage of “prophētēs” limits the operation of that calling to men only (See Eph 4:11).

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by ILG

Let's not even go there. I have my arguments but we will just go in circles. You have to admit that God used women....in Deborah, Hulda, Phoebe etc. The question is WHY did God do this? Especially in the case of Deborah, he used a woman MIGHTILY in leadership. This cannot be denied except by those who would like to take a penknife to the chapter. So, why did God raise Deborah up and use her this way? Was it because men failed as so many claim? If that is why God used Deborah (and it may be) WHY vilify women who are used of God when it is the MEN who are failing?

Oh, okay...

Like I said, EXEGESIS and EISEGESIS.... See where the latter does lead?