Isaiah 3 and jewelry...

[Sam]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Many intelligent folks (such as David K. Bernard) agrees with the holiness stance on hair, makeup, clothes, etc.

Are you saying that non intelligent people only will believe in these doctrines?

Yesterday I received an email from Word Aflame advertising a new release:

The Life of Holiness by David Bernard

It is described as "a set of three Bible studies on the topic of holiness. The series covers the biblical foundation for holy living, the distinction of sexes, and modesty."

The following review is given:
"On three exceptional nights in the spring of 2010, our congregation was blessed by the extraordinary teaching of Brother David K. Bernard. In this three-part series, our general superintendent presented the beauty of a life of holiness governed by the Lord and His Word. Brother Bernard's practical yet gentle approach to this topic is unrivaled. Our church family was blessed both with deeper understanding of His ways and with strengthened commitment to pleasing God in all aspects of our lives. I know you will be as well.
Pastor Scott Graham
The Sanctuary, Hazelwood, Missouri"

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Many intelligent folks (such as David K. Bernard) agrees with the holiness stance on hair, makeup, clothes, etc.

Are you saying that non intelligent people only will believe in these doctrines?

Certainly, the intelligence-odometer doesn't tilt their way. There are definitely kids who grew up in this, later got an education of some kind, and then proceeded to become an apologetic voice for the beliefs they practiced.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Certainly, the intelligence-odometer doesn't tilt their way. There are definitely kids who grew up in this, later got an education of some kind, and then proceeded to become an apologetic voice for the beliefs they practiced.

Sorry but I've met men way more intelligent than anyone that I have seen and they embraced holiness, men with doctorates such a Clifford Redout, David K. Bernard. I really don't think anyone can say the intelligence doesn't tilt their way.

[Godsdrummer]

Some one can go to school and get thier doctorite and still not have common sense. Just because some one has a phd, dd or any there letters before or after thier name does not make them intelegent or having common sense.

Aw well some can and some just follow those that do. It's the blind that lead the blind that is our problem.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Some one can go to school and get thier doctorite and still not have common sense. Just because some one has a phd, dd or any there letters before or after thier name does not make them intelegent or having common sense.

Aw well some can and some just follow those that do. It's the blind that lead the blind that is our problem.

These men that I refer to are certainly not blind. They teach about common sense too. And they seem to be very humble when dealing in holiness.

Common sense doesn't require you to get rid of common reasoning.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

These men that I refer to are certainly not blind. They teach about common sense too. And they seem to be very humble when dealing in holiness.

Common sense doesn't require you to get rid of common reasoning.

Brother

I was blind, deep in a rut of holiness pentecostalism, I could not see what was right before my eyes as It had been drilled into my mind from birth, this was the only way. You wonder how a Jehovah witness, or Morman can beleive such false doctrine. The same way we do.

Common reasoning is why we don't see what common sense is trying to tell us, because we reason away common sense. When I saw that the standards of UPCI were not sound bible teaching but mans tradition. I still took 10 years before I left, I reasoned why the way we taught was ok. When I saw that Deut. 22:5 could not have anything to do with pants on women and that we were adding to God's word, I reasoned why we should continue to preach a women should only wear dresses.

For years I believed that those churches that did not preach holiness any more had lost the spirit of God, I even convinced myself that what I felt when visiting them was not God's spirit. I could name several that I have attened in the last 5 years that the people have more of a Godly spirit than many holiness Pentecostals and the spirit of God comes down every meeting, because the people are there to meet God not just attend because if they don't it must be sin.

In the last 5 years I have been to many nondenominational churches attened AOG for two years. And every time I was in the presence of God. But when I would go visit my home church it was dead and dry.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Brother

I was blind, deep in a rut of holiness pentecostalism, I could not see what was right before my eyes as It had been drilled into my mind from birth, this was the only way. You wonder how a Jehovah witness, or Morman can beleive such false doctrine. The same way we do.

Common reasoning is why we don't see what common sense is trying to tell us, because we reason away common sense. When I saw that the standards of UPCI were not sound bible teaching but mans tradition. I still took 10 years before I left, I reasoned why the way we taught was ok. When I saw that Deut. 22:5 could not have anything to do with pants on women and that we were adding to God's word, I reasoned why we should continue to preach a women should only wear dresses.

For years I believed that those churches that did not preach holiness any more had lost the spirit of God, I even convinced myself that what I felt when visiting them was not God's spirit. I could name several that I have attened in the last 5 years that the people have more of a Godly spirit than many holiness Pentecostals and the spirit of God comes down every meeting, because the people are there to meet God not just attend because if they don't it must be sin.

In the last 5 years I have been to many nondenominational churches attened AOG for two years. And every time I was in the presence of God. But when I would go visit my home church it was dead and dry.

So by that admission Trinity has the right truth? Man we have a lot of dry churches. Its a shame, but just because you feel the Spirit of God in a church does not mean they are right and we are wrong. God responds to faith. No matter what the person looks like on the outside. Listen to Jeff Arnold sometime if you think UPCI people are all programmed to 'think' like you were taught to think.

I am one that questioned holiness. I threw out my reasoning and went to 'common sense' as you call it and God called me on it. God will call you on it too one day and you will look back and wonder why you fought against it. The answer will be because of bitter teaching that you had in it.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

So by that admission Trinity has the right truth? Man we have a lot of dry churches. Its a shame, but just because you feel the Spirit of God in a church does not mean they are right and we are wrong. God responds to faith. No matter what the person looks like on the outside. Listen to Jeff Arnold sometime if you think UPCI people are all programmed to 'think' like you were taught to think.

I am one that questioned holiness. I threw out my reasoning and went to 'common sense' as you call it and God called me on it. God will call you on it too one day and you will look back and wonder why you fought against it. The answer will be because of bitter teaching that you had in it.

The hundred dollor question, does UPCI have the whole truth as we preach we do? I don't think so. For that matter what is holiness? Is it the list of "standards" preached by UPCI or other holiness churches? Yes we are to be holy for God is a holy God. But holiness is not a set of rules put together by man, this is what the pharase had done at the time of Christ. Holiness is a right heart before God that reflects itself to the outside. When you then try to define what that reflection is by stipulating what is holy and what is not you bring your self under law. And Paul specificly tells us we are not under law. You cannot teach ouward holiness as defined by man and then say it comes from the heart.

And if you questioned holiness what did you do with the passages that UPCI mistranslates to mean what they teach. Deut 22:5 being a good example, if you truly studied the teachings you have to have found that this passage does not have anything to do with pants on women, so how do you justify teaching a doctrine that adds to the word of God? Do you think it is ok to add to the meaning of God's word?

Look what happend to Eve she added to the word of God when confronted with the serpent, letting him know she did not know what God had said. She twisted Gods positive word to a negative. That is like saying I can't do this because God said so without understanding why God said this. God has a reason for every commandment, if we can't find the reason for the things we teach as commandments it is probably because it is a mans teaching not Gods. Just as Eve told saten we cannot eat or touch the fruit she let us know she was just doing not understanding. God never said they could not eat the fruit, he said of every tree you can eat, BUT of the tree.... if you eat it there will be repercutions. As Paul said I can do all things BUT some thing are not expediant or do not edify.

A true shepard will feed the flock how will he do this by leading them to pastures and letting them forage for thier own good food. Not keeping them in a corral and feeding them dry straw, this is what too many pastors do.

The answer will be because of bitter teaching that you had in it

You don't know how funny that statement is, I was in the ministry when I was in my late teens license in my early 20's starting my own church by my mid 20's My pastor I grew up under was one of the most balance holiness pastors I have ever come accross. If it was not spelled out by most accounts he did not preach it. I did not go looking to try and prove outward holines was not right I questioned because I had to make sure what I preached was in there "the bible" as Paul told Timothy "that you don't find yourself ashamed". I found myself ashamed before a sister in my church. I Told God put it in my heart for myself I beleive it, it make sense, but I have to study it not relly on other mens studies. That is when I found too many discrepancies. Teaching based on one passage that seemed to speak against something when in other passages it was ok.

Other than Deut 22:5 I will not go in to any other teachings for one simple reason, I am not trying to shake anyones faith in the things they hold dear. As this could cause them to lose all faith. What I do want to do is the get people to learn to listen to God over man and study themselves, building thier own personal relationship deeper with God. If by asking leading questions I can get some one to go to God and learn to recognize his voice and get closer to him I have acomplished what I set out to do.

One thing I have learned when some one studies God's word with an open mind and heart to GOD, not man, truth will prevail.

[acerrak]

weather we want to admit it or not the upci does have mans traditions, and certainly not biblical. some are even racial.

facial hair. not ok on a white guy preacher, its ok on a black guy preacher.
we cant condem woman who wear pants its not biblical. for all in all most of the standards we have are for seperation from the world. however these standards have created pharasees over time, and they set the bar of rightousness. and when you dont reach there level of expectations they label you. ( though this could happen in any church) I have seen it more from the Op Side of the House.

Yes! Arnold one of my favorite preachers. it would be nice if we had more preachers like that. Not afraid to say to a GC that God works outside the apostolic world with signs wonder and miracles. He always makes great points and cuts straight to the Point.

Holiness is a inward expression that workd outwardly. And Holiness comes from God's spirit.
many times over we try to judge a book by its cover. I have seen homless people who show Holiness and their rags.
Though i felt convicted about most of my jewlery i worn, i eventually took it off. all except the wedding ring and i have never felt convicted about that, i just have been reffered to as a pagen sometimes cause i wear it.
But Holiness comes from the Spirit in Us. Not necasserily in outward appearance all the time. but a attitude tword others!

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

The hundred dollor question, does UPCI have the whole truth as we preach we do? I don't think so. For that matter what is holiness? Is it the list of "standards" preached by UPCI or other holiness churches? Yes we are to be holy for God is a holy God. But holiness is not a set of rules put together by man, this is what the pharase had done at the time of Christ. Holiness is a right heart before God that reflects itself to the outside. When you then try to define what that reflection is by stipulating what is holy and what is not you bring your self under law. And Paul specificly tells us we are not under law. You cannot teach ouward holiness as defined by man and then say it comes from the heart.

And if you questioned holiness what did you do with the passages that UPCI mistranslates to mean what they teach. Deut 22:5 being a good example, if you truly studied the teachings you have to have found that this passage does not have anything to do with pants on women, so how do you justify teaching a doctrine that adds to the word of God? Do you think it is ok to add to the meaning of God's word?

A true shepard will feed the flock how will he do this by leading them to pastures and letting them forage for thier own good food. Not keeping them in a corral and feeding them dry straw, this is what too many pastors do.



You don't know how funny that statement is, I was in the ministry when I was in my late teens license in my early 20's starting my own church by my mid 20's My pastor I grew up under was one of the most balance holiness pastors I have ever come accross. If it was not spelled out by most accounts he did not preach it. I did not go looking to try and prove outward holines was not right I questioned because I had to make sure what I preached was in there "the bible" as Paul told Timothy "that you don't find yourself ashamed". I found myself ashamed before a sister in my church. I Told God put it in my heart for myself I beleive it, it make sense, but I have to study it not relly on other mens studies. That is when I found too many discrepancies. Teaching based on one passage that seemed to speak against something when in other passages it was ok.

Other than Deut 22:5 I will not go in to any other teachings for one simple reason, I am not trying to shake anyones faith in the things they hold dear. As this could cause them to lose all faith. What I do want to do is the get people to learn to listen to God over man and study themselves, building thier own personal relationship deeper with God. If by asking leading questions I can get some one to go to God and learn to recognize his voice and get closer to him I have acomplished what I set out to do.

One thing I have learned when some one studies God's word with an open mind and heart to GOD, not man, truth will prevail.

If you grew up under a balanced pastor then WHO pounded it in your head as you have stated before?

Deuteronomy does not deal with pants or skirts. It deals with men and women looking like each other. Its a principle, nothing more. God's spirit is still convicting women today to take off pants and put on skirts (even outside of pentecost).

Why? Because is distinct. Pants and skirts didn't exist in the Bible. Sorry but I don't take Deuteronomy 22:5 literal like many do. If I did, then women wearing T shirts are violating the same principal. Scoff and call it unbibilical all you want to regarding the skirts and pants issue. It came from the Spirit of God, not of men. If you really get to know God's heart, He will teach you these things.

Here is what man has done with it.

made it a heaven/hell issue because its an abomination
made it like a christian lady is only christian when she is wearing a skirt

I don't agree with either one. I will tell you this though.. I believe not adhering to principles of holiness CAN cause you to walk away from God. But certainly a lady who cuts her hair or wears pants, those aren't the issues that will condemn them initially.. it will be the matter of the heart. If the heart is right, God will lead them. Thats all I have to say about that.

Amen to truth will prevail. I believe it. God is getting a bride ready for his Coming.