Questions about the 'Old Covenant' laws.

[AJS]

Are ‘New Covenant’ believers supposed to pursue and follow - ALL, SOME or NONE of the ‘Old Covenant’ Levitical and Mosaic laws?
There were 613 Levitical laws and commandments, found here.

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

It may do everyone - lots of good to read thru those 613 commandments at least once in their life…to just show yourself, how good we really have it.

Why does it seems that some New Covenant religious folks - like to pick and choose certain Old Covenant laws at their own discretions…and then try to obligate these laws upon other folks?
#409 – Must tithe,
#365 & #366 – Shouldn’t wear clothing of opposite sex,
#343 - Not to seek the ‘maytim’ (dead) - prohibit speaking to those from the spirit world,
#210 – Must observe the Sabbath day,
#348 - Not to tattoo the body like the idolater. Yes, I despise tattoo too, but today there is no law against it.
#---- blah, blah, blah.

How do we do with these?
#24 - To recite grace after meals… Do you do it before eating? Why?
#359 - Not to sow different kinds of seed together in one field... Have you ever planted a garden?
#367 - Not to wear garments made of wool and linen mixed together…Surely, everyone has been guilty of this.
#387 - That a person with a physical blemish shall not serve (in the Sanctuary)… WHAT ? ?
#595 - That he shall not enter any covered structure where there is a dead body. A funeral home?
#345 - Not to remove the entire beard, like the idolaters…. How many Christian men today, are clean shaven?


If you think that NONE of these O.T. laws are in effect for N.T. believers….can you then explain why there is a double standard insisted upon, when preachers… Proclaim, Preach and in some cases – even Demand - that certain O.T. laws must be strictly adhered to?

And if you think that ALL or SOME of these Old Covenant Levitical laws are for believers to adhere to today,… may I ask WHY?
Why, do you think that way?
Wouldn’t that make the entire life and ministry of Jesus Christ - a useless and worthless reality?


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[KeptByTheWord]

You raise some valid points. These are points anyone who has read through the first four books of the Bible at some point has got to ask!

One big one that immediately comes to mind... why indeed is Deuteronomy 22:5 pointed out as the handpicked scripture for women to only wear skirts? There are many, many other scriptures in the Bible speaking of abominations! (*And I know that verse is taken out of context anyway, but I don't want to turn your thread into that!)

I would love to hear from some of our Bible scholars their thoughts on this, and why. I have my own thoughts, but don't have time right now to formulate them and put them here for everyone to read.

[bbyrd009]

I think you better follow them all, or accept Grace, and let the Spirit guide you?

[Aquila]

I don't believe that we are under the OT Law. For the Christian there are only two "laws":

Matthew 22:36-40 (KJV)
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

These are the only New Covenant Commandments binding upon the born again Christian. This is the "law of Christ".

So what about all those OT laws??? The Bible says,

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

In the Law of God we see how God commanded His people to love Him and their neighbors. We also see types and shadows that are valuable to spiritually discern important truths. For example, not growing different kinds of seed together in one field teaches us that we shouldn't try to sow unto both the Spirit and the flesh, we should dedicate ourselves to sowing unto the Spirit alone:

Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

This is a double mindedness that attempts to please the world, or the flesh, and God. It can't be done:

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Not wearing garments made of wool and linen mixed together is a type of combining grace and works. Wool is a covering provided naturally by God via a lamb. Linen is woven and toiled over. Paul wrote:

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

So, while we are not BOUND by these laws, we indeed learn many valuable principles from them. They are therefore profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.

I hope this helps.

God bless!

[KeptByTheWord]

This is very good Aquila. I like the analogy of the linen and the wool, never heard that one before.

I find the Torah fascinating, because God has a plan for everything. He doesn't do things haphazardly. This world that we live in is an amazing study in the order and plan of God. Everything works perfectly together, with the moon and gravity controlling the tides, and how the stars are in patterns, and on and on the list could go!

So this makes me realize that the words in the Torah are indeed for our benefit, but of course grace has given us the ability to rise above just our flesh trying to fulfill the law, but now the spirit living within us helps us work towards perfection. As Paul says in Ephesians 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ."

I think that the laws given in the Torah were given for our benefit, and are enhanced with the spirit of Christ living within us.

I heard one person say that all the laws given in the Torah could be summed up in this one word "Love" .... love for the Lord, and love for your fellow man. Indeed, we will spend a lifetime learning the meaning of love in God's mind, not ours.

[AJS]

Thanks everyone and especially Aquila, you said:
"While we are not BOUND by these O.T. laws, we indeed learn many valuable principles from them."


I agree.
Our Master, the Lord Jesus Christ, showed his followers, when he spoke with two dead guys, Moses and Elijah on the mount that – that the (Old Covenant Levitical law) (Lev. 20:27) which had prohibited someone from talking with the dead – that, that Old Covenant law is totally a dead letter….and it continues to be so.

The (613 Old Covenant Levitical laws) were effective UNTIL - the Lord Jesus Christ brought a New Covenant. Therefore now, the Old Covenant holds absolutely no power over any New Covenant Christian / believer, anymore and forevermore.

If these O.C. laws are still effective for any N.T. believer…then the Lord Jesus Christ should have been stoned for talking / communicating with the dead.
Most folks never understand this. They continue to live under the fear of BREAKING this law of ‘communication with the dead’… and any of the other Old Covenant Levitical laws.

All these Old Covenant laws are utterly Done Away (2Cor. 3:7,11) Cast Out (Gal 4:24,30) Fulfilled and Passed (Mat 5:17,18, Luk 24:44, Act 13:29), was and still is Faulty (Heb 8:7,8), has Decayed and waxed Old (Heb 8:13), was added Until Christ (Gal 3:19), we are No Longer Under (Gal 3:24,25,5:18; Rom 6:14), has been Taken Away (Heb 9:1,18,10:9), has Ended (Rom 10:4), and was Only Until John (Luk 16:16).

The Old Covenant was REPLACED with a BETTER covenant (Heb 7:22), that has better promises (Heb 8:6), that has a better priesthood (Heb 7:12), with a better hope (Heb 7:19), we are now under the perfect law of liberty (Jas 1:25), the law of Christ (Gal 6:2) as is found in the N. T. scriptures.

Again…the Old Covenant was REPLACED with a New Covenant…and (it is my opinion) that it is Only the NEW Covenant that is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction and instructions (2Tim 3:16)….not the Old Covenant, contrary to what many may teach.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

This is very good Aquila. I like the analogy of the linen and the wool, never heard that one before.

I find the Torah fascinating, because God has a plan for everything. He doesn't do things haphazardly. This world that we live in is an amazing study in the order and plan of God. Everything works perfectly together, with the moon and gravity controlling the tides, and how the stars are in patterns, and on and on the list could go!

So this makes me realize that the words in the Torah are indeed for our benefit, but of course grace has given us the ability to rise above just our flesh trying to fulfill the law, but now the spirit living within us helps us work towards perfection. As Paul says in Ephesians 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ."

I think that the laws given in the Torah were given for our benefit, and are enhanced with the spirit of Christ living within us.

I heard one person say that all the laws given in the Torah could be summed up in this one word "Love" .... love for the Lord, and love for your fellow man. Indeed, we will spend a lifetime learning the meaning of love in God's mind, not ours.

Good points. I'd only add… the Law wasn’t designed to make anyone holy. The Law was also not designed to be obeyed. The purpose of the Law is known as the “ministry of death”. It’s design was to condemn all men. None could keep it. Thus the sacrificial system to atone for sin. This was ultimately fulfilled in Christ, the one the sacrificial system was a type of. Now the Law only serves to demonstrate one’s need for a Savior, Jesus.

Many believe that the Holy Ghost aids us in keeping the Law. This isn’t necessarily true. The Holy Ghost’s purpose is to convict of sin and to aid us, as we surrender, with being conformed into the image and likeness of Christ Jesus. The Christian’s standard isn’t a code of laws… it’s a person, Jesus. Our aim should be, through our oneness with Him by the Holy Spirit, to immolate Him and allow Him to live HIS life out through us in the Spirit. We are living extensions of Jesus, and we too share in His “oneness” with the Father through the Holy Ghost. If we seek to live by the laws of the OT we will only be conformed into the image of ancient Israel. That’s not going to bring sanctification or salvation. It’s only going to make us carnal, as they were. That’s the danger of legalism. Any body of laws, rather they be the Law of the OT or the regulations of a church organization, will only conform you into something other than Jesus. Religious regulations from a church or denomination only conforms you into the image of that church or denomination…not the image of Jesus.

Jesus is our standard. He gave us the law of love, the law of Christ, which is simple:

Love God
Love one another

Our motivation in all things should always be love for God and neighbor in the name of Christ. We must allow Christ’s own love to pour forth from us.

So our options are:

-Embrace grace and love God and neighbor, seeking to be conformed into the likeness of Christ through our oneness with Him.

-Obey the Law or a codified list of standards that conforms us into a religious image of a church or denomination and thereby fail to be one with God.

There isn’t any middle ground.

[Praxeas]

A covenant is an agreement. They often include stipulations. If you want to know what the NEW Covenant is about, read through the NEW Testament

Does the NT teach we must keep the sabbath day? If so does it explain HOW we keep it? Is it a day of rest or a day of going to church? Please show us using the NT

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

A covenant is an agreement. They often include stipulations. If you want to know what the NEW Covenant is about, read through the NEW Testament

Does the NT teach we must keep the sabbath day? If so does it explain HOW we keep it? Is it a day of rest or a day of going to church? Please show us using the NT

Good points Praxeas.

[AJS]

.
Last nite, as I was meditating and reading the grand O’ book, I made note of a couple of verses.
The first is concerning the O.T. LAW in Act 15:10:
Now therefore why test God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

From all indications here – it seems that anyone trying - to keep those Levitical and Mosaic Laws, was nigh unto impossible.

Second, is concerning the O.T. LAW in Act 15:24:
For as much as we have heard, that certain once's, which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, You must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment.

All the apostle said and wrote: … that anyone pointing to or demanding that anyone keep the Levitical and Mosaic Laws… have “went out from us”.
Ahhhh,… folks this seems to be way more SERIOUS than I first understood it to be.

I am 65 years old and for much of my life, I was in the UPC, a parrot of my pastors, who was a parrot of headquarters some place.

I now know that I am going to make it my ‘personal duty’ to go to any and all… that I have in the past instructed – and if I have used the Old Testament Law in any way…even if it has a smell of pointing to those laws, as a means that someone must follow or adhere to…that I will tell them I was WRONG and I was in ERROR.

Jesus said in (Matt 21:44), that we either “fall on the rock (now) and become broken…or the rock will fall on us and grind us to powder…(later on in the spirit world era).

Does the O.T. Law have any purpose for us today…Yes.
For me, it is a history lesson, something interesting to read and I am to learn from their mistakes….but, that’s basically it.

THERE….I’ve put the last nail in the lid on the coffin - that holds Mr. LAW.
But alas, - I know that there is somebody out there looking for a crowbar to try and pry the lid off the coffin…and then to hold up again, to display, the skeleton of Mr. LAW.
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