Have These Seven Trumpets Already Blown ?

No - not all of them.

Michael

You asked: Have These Seven Trumpets Already Blown ? What do you think? Do you believe THIS happened already?

As I understand it, my group believes that the first 3 have ALREADY *BEGUN* blown and relate to the environment where science backs up the claim that at least 1/3rd of vegetation, the sea, and fresh water are lifeless. So for us the signs are a matter of hindsight. John saw these things in a heavenly setting and these things were basically a series of visions showing the end result and not literally how it would happen. A big hang up for most folks is they expect fire and brimstone supernatural fireworks to happen for it to be a bonefide judgement. But look back to how the Assyrian empire was conquered: the Lord used Babylon. Look how the Babylonians were conquered: by the Medes-Persians. Yet no one would dare sugget it wasn't by the Lord's hand - except for maybe folks like the Assyrian king who boasted to Hezekiah that it was by his own hand. Cyrus didn't let that victory go to his head as something he did when presented with the prophecy that predicted what he just participated in. So it can happen by man and still be considered from God. So the trumpets so far have been a judgement in this vein. That said I'm all for taking care of the environment and will try not to buy a gas guzzling car in the fall (getting a Toyota Yaris I think). The sequence and timing is another huge hangup for folks will likely have about this position. Given the scattered nature of how prophecy is presented throughout scripture (we know what Peter quoted from Joel is still happening today), we shouldn't expect everything to have to fit into a strict linear timeline. God revealed this in bits and peices when alluding to Pentecost in the OT. Our western mind gets confused as to the fact that these visions John saw about he seals/trumpets/bowls is presented in a cycles in the same vein as the book of Hebrews makes when presenting Jesus as superior to the things that foreshadowed Him. The 7 seals and 7 bowls focus on things other than the environment. The trumpets focus on the environment. So there's no lineral sequence of all the seals having to open first before any trumpets can begin to sound. No. With this in mind we should expect there to be parallels and overlaps. The first trumpet doesn't have to finish before the second one can start sounding. It's a rising crescendo of other instruments sounding in harmony that the Lord is coming. We don't claim to know what the 4th trumpet will be. No one will know until after it happens. A volcano, "global dimming", some man-made thing that causes the light to diminish? Who knows? Only the Lord, and everyone else left behind looking back in hindsight. All we know for sure is that this is when the rapture happens, and the Church is spared the last 3 woes. No one will know until afterwards, and so there's not much point speculating.

Again we believe these trumpets continue to blow and we haven't seen all the details (e.g. 1/3rd of the ships might be something like less boats and/or a series of tsunamis, etc). Perhaps this happens later after the 4th trumpet begins sounding.. it's clearly not finished yet.

The 4th trumpet ties into a lot of the verses surrounding the "day of the Lord" in terms of the imagery about things like the "sun","moon","stars","dark clouds", less "light", etc. That trumpet has not yet sounded. That trumpet - as far as the CHURCH is concerned is the last trumpet.

Again the last 3 trumpets are the 3 woes those who remain after the rapture - at which at that point begins and lasts 7 years. So we believe in a pre-trib rapture, but not like the typical pre-tribbers do who are stuck with this western mindset of how the seals/trumpets/bowls sequence ought to be. So we've been living through the trumpets all this time, and that certainly hasn't led me to believe that Christ is beating up His Bride/Church or loves us any less. I can see many having a problem with this position as well.

Daniel's 70th week still fits into all of that and isn't contradicted by this either. The trumpets began sounding somewhere between the late 1800s and early 1900s with the world wars and other conflicts fitting into the category of the 2nd seal, etc. The 1st seal we believe is the huge resurrgence in the Holy Spirit's operation and revivals in that time period. During the time of Exodus Egypt experienced curses, while Israel experienced blessings. So that neatly explains to me why we can have a white (blessings) and 3 other horses which are not blessings.

That's a lot of info, so I'll stop there. It's also not something we focus heavily on. I had to pick a lot of brains on the above and we tend to play down escatology and not let that become a heavy obsession to distract us from praying for more people to come to Christ and be saved.

It's a position that I had not come across before and explains things well to me. All that said who knows what can happen to us tommorow: sickness, accidents, cancer, etc. Our last day can happen long before the rapture, so I don't see a lot of value in arguing about stuff like escatology. It's fascinating, but serves as a background to the moment in which we live today. The primary objective is to be fishers of men for Christ. The rapture happens at some point, and so that's enough info for anyone who desires to be forever with Christ.

What matters is hearing the voice of the Lord, His Holy Spirit, and the directions being given how to reach others who have not yet heard His voice. So they can know true joy and peace and be above the discomforts of this life. The trumpets are sounding, but I'm happy as can be and not affected in terms of my hope for what wonderful things God has for His faithful.

That's my understanding of what my group believes.

Michael

You asked:
Have These Seven Trumpets Already Blown ?
What do you think? Do you believe THIS happened already?

Not all of them. Our group believes we're up to the 3rd trumpet awaiting the 4th trumpet which we believe will also be when the Rapture happens before the Great Tribulation (which we believe will be a period of 7 years). The seals and bowls overlap and focus on things other than the environment. The last 3 trumpets are the "3 woes" and what the Lord promised to spare the Church of Philedephia in the 6th letter of the 7 Letters of Revelation from. I'll tried to post a long post earlier today, but it hasn't gone through yet. I'll try again.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Eliseus

Just my opinion, but I believe we may be in between the sixth and seventh trumpets now.

And no, I do NOT agree with Irwin Baxter's interpretational scheme. lol

Why do you say scheme????

John saw the trumpets in a heavenly setting as a series of visions showing the end result (and not literally how it would happen). A big hang up for most folks is they expect fire and brimstone supernatural fireworks to happen for it to be a bonefide judgement. But look back to how the Assyrian and Babylonian empires were conquered - by the succeeding empire God was using an an instrument (e.g. Cyrus). So it's clearly not something without precident. No one would dare sugget it wasn't by the Lord's hand - except for maybe the Assyrian king who falsely boasted to Hezekiah that it was by his own hand. So it can happen by man and still be considered from God.
So the trumpets so far have been a judgement in this vein.

Given the scattered nature of how prophecy is presented throughout scripture as recurring themes, we shouldn't expect everything to have to fit into a strict linear timeline (all seals THEN all trumpets THEN all bowls). Our western mind gets confused as to the fact that these visions John saw about were written in the same way Hebrews was written when in CYCLES the argument for Jesus being superior was presented from different angles. The
seals/trumpets/bowls focus on different things. The trumpets focus on the environment.

So there's no lineral sequence of all the seals having to open first before any trumpets can begin to sound. No. With this in mind we should expect there to be parallels and overlaps. The first trumpet doesn't have to finish before the second one can start sounding. It's a rising crescendo of other instruments sounding in harmony that the Lord is coming.

We don't claim to know what the 4th trumpet will be. Is it a bunch of volcanos, is it "global dimming", some man-made thing that causes the light to diminish? Who knows? Only the Lord. This is when the rapture happens, and the Church is spared the last 3 woes. No one will know until afterwards, and so there's not much point speculating.

Again we believe these trumpets continue to blow and we haven't seen all the details (e.g. 1/3rd of the ships might be something like less boats and/or a series of tsunamis, etc). Perhaps this happens later after the 4th trumpet begins sounding.. it's clearly not finished yet.

The 4th trumpet ties into a lot of the verses surrounding the "day of the Lord" in terms of the imagery about things like the "sun","moon","stars","dark clouds", less "light", etc. That trumpet has not yet sounded. That trumpet - as far as the CHURCH is concerned is the last trumpet.

So we believe in a pre-trib rapture, but not like the typical pre-tribbers who presume that the 7 years has to begin before any seals/trumpets/vails happen. Daniel's 70th week still fits into all of that and isn't contradicted by this either.

So the 4th trumpet is the last trumpet as far as the Church to be raptured is concerned.

"But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people." (Luke 21:23)

"As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: "Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!"" (Revelation 8:13)

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth." (Revelation 3:10)

Unbelievers (those never saved, and those one saved but not always saved by their own rebellion) and Israel will go through the tribulation. We also believe that since the Church age has ended, God will resume where He left off with Israel and only Jews can be saved at that point. The multitude of tribes and tongues spoken of who come out of the tribuation are either:

a) Jews who can be found just about anywhere on the earth today who accepted Jesus during the the Great Tribulation.

and/or

b) The Church before the Rapture (not having to go through the great trib). Those who were left behind because they rejected Jesus who were once saved, but stopped walking with Jesus cannot be saved. The Church age - the age of grace is over and that door of opportunity shuts.

One thing for certain is it's not those once saved, who stopped walking with Christ, who hardened their hearts.. who rebelled as the following verses describe. All scripture is for the Church to learn from. Like Korah, believers once saved become worse than unbelievers when they rebell...

"As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."
(Hebrews 3:15)

TODAY meaning in this age of Grace, before the Rapture.

This verse above applies to those who don't keep walking with Jesus who are described in the verses below (notice again the "woe")...

"Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them. "

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead."
(Jude 10-12)

The First Trumpet
"The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up." (Revelation 8:7)

This verse addresses the massive deforestation and burning of the forests, which is a huge topic of discussion in our time. In general this verses talks about the destruction of greenery or foliage (example: In Savannah or Plains regions, this is grass, and in forested regions this would be trees) which in this century is unprecedented. As dramatic as the above verse sounds, it's important to note that it was being seen in a heavenly setting. Through our eyes, we of course can see that "a third" (33%) has already been rendered lifeless. Imagery such as "hail", "fire" and "blood" have a Spiritual meaning, like Jesus used in His own parables.

The Second Trumpet
"Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed."
(Revelation 8:8-9)

This verse addresses what researchers like Jacques Cousteau have discovered: at leaset 33% of the sea life is lifeless.

Regarding the "ships lost": there is no known number - but we are in the midst of a process that will continue into the FUTURE. It is not clear how this will happen, but it is interesting that in recent years there has been a huge drop in the number of fishing boats because of the decreasing number of fish. A more dramatic possiblity might be a large scale naval conflict, or perhaps things related to tsunamis or hurricanes.

The Third Trumpet
"Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter."
(Revelation 8:10-11)

This verse addresses the contamination of the world's fresh water sources. Truely not much water is drinkable without some form of purification and treatment. All this is due of course to things like industrial waste, sewage, agro-toxins carried by wind and rain, etc.

To those who disagree, just imagine for a moment if the world had not artificial means of water purification. Is it therefore safe to say that at least 33% of the world's fresh water is lifeless?

[Steve Epley]

Nope the Church goes out in chapter 4. Glad I could help y'all.

Originally Posted by Esther

Why do you say scheme????

Sorry, I read too many pre-20th century books, lol.

A "scheme" is a system or method or framework. Short for "schematic".

Not meant in the current and somewhat erroneous way of meaning "disengenuous plot to deceive".

Sorry.

What about the helicopters?

lol