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03-23-2021, 09:55 PM
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The Word, God's Visible Image
I have read a couple of Oneness books recently that teach that the Word before the incarnation was the visible image of God.(I believe I have read posts from Michael the Disciple on this forum teaching the same thing.) In heaven, therefore, there was always a visible form of God before the incarnation, and this form was the Word. And, if I understand this view correctly, the Angel of the Lord was the Word and not just a temporary visible manifestation of Yahweh. If you are familiar with this view, when the Angel of the Lord, i.e., the Word, appeared to someone on earth, was the visible form of the Word still in heaven as well?
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03-24-2021, 09:49 AM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image
Quote:
Originally Posted by Costeon
I have read a couple of Oneness books recently that teach that the Word before the incarnation was the visible image of God.(I believe I have read posts from Michael the Disciple on this forum teaching the same thing.) In heaven, therefore, there was always a visible form of God before the incarnation, and this form was the Word. And, if I understand this view correctly, the Angel of the Lord was the Word and not just a temporary visible manifestation of Yahweh. If you are familiar with this view, when the Angel of the Lord, i.e., the Word, appeared to someone on earth, was the visible form of the Word still in heaven as well?
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1.) Which books did you read?
2.) What exactly do you mean by "heaven"?
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03-24-2021, 11:12 AM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul
1.) Which books did you read?
2.) What exactly do you mean by "heaven"?
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1. God in Christ Jesus by John Paterson and Jehovah-Jesus by C.H. Yadon (at least edited by Yadon). I have been reading some in The Supreme Godhead by Kenneth Reeves and If Ye Know These Things by Ross Drysdale.
Drysdale includes quotes from some early Oneness leaders, like G.T. Haywood, who apparently taught the doctrine that the Word was God's visible form as well.
2. Where God's throne is, around which his heavenly court gathers. (E.g., 1 Kings 22.19).
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03-25-2021, 10:38 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image
Quote:
Originally Posted by Costeon
1. God in Christ Jesus by John Paterson and Jehovah-Jesus by C.H. Yadon (at least edited by Yadon). I have been reading some in The Supreme Godhead by Kenneth Reeves and If Ye Know These Things by Ross Drysdale.
Drysdale includes quotes from some early Oneness leaders, like G.T. Haywood, who apparently taught the doctrine that the Word was God's visible form as well.
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Thanks for answering. I have read some of Drysdale, but not the others. Are you familiar with Dr. Michael Heiser? He is a proponent of Logos as Visible Image. He expounds on the idea in his book The Unseen Realm.
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2. Where God's throne is, around which his heavenly court gathers. (E.g., 1 Kings 22.19).
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Again, thanks for answering. And where might this throne be located, where the heavenly court gathers? What are its dimensions? From what materials is it constructed?
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03-25-2021, 10:49 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul
Thanks for answering. I have read some of Drysdale, but not the others. Are you familiar with Dr. Michael Heiser? He is a proponent of Logos as Visible Image. He expounds on the idea in his book The Unseen Realm.
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I have heard of him. I think maybe I watched a video a long time ago of him discussing Psalm 82 and his idea of God's entourage, the elohim, being the gods of the nations or something like that.
I will check out this book. Thanks for letting me know about it. What do you think of him?
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Again, thanks for answering. And where might this throne be located, where the heavenly court gathers? What are its dimensions? From what materials is it constructed?
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I don't know.
Last edited by Costeon; 03-25-2021 at 11:04 PM.
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03-25-2021, 11:04 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image
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Originally Posted by Costeon
I don't know.
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I ask these questions, not be be glib or coy, but to spark some thought. Does God have a literal throne, made up of material existence somewhere within definable, three dimensional space?
Or is the use of the word throne a symbol for the authority/rule of God over the cosmos?
As such, is heaven a place, per se, or likewise a symbol of a different dimension of reality?
If a symbol, potent as it is, then there is no real need to speak of God having a visible form in heaven that the angels can see. For what are angels? Are they not like God, that is, invisible spirits?
What need do angels have for eyes? Our eyes require natural or artificial light, shining upon our retinas, transmitting information through our optic nerves to portions of our brains.
This is true of angels?
Rather, the Logos as visible image of God, or the Angel of Jehovah, for that matter, happen on earth. God made Himself visible through the Logos or His Angel, upon earth for human benefit.
There is no need, as far as I can tell, for God to make Himself visible in an already invisible realm, where all is experienced, not through the physical senses, but through the heart and mind, that is, the invisible aspects of ourselves that make us who we are.
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03-26-2021, 06:39 AM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul
Thanks for answering. I have read some of Drysdale, but not the others. Are you familiar with Dr. Michael Heiser? He is a proponent of Logos as Visible Image. He expounds on the idea in his book The Unseen Realm.
Again, thanks for answering. And where might this throne be located, where the heavenly court gathers? What are its dimensions? From what materials is it constructed?
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As I understand it I think Dr. Heiser brings the Logos from the Trinitarian perspective.
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03-26-2021, 01:35 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
As I understand it I think Dr. Heiser brings the Logos from the Trinitarian perspective.
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Yes, he states he is orthodox Trinitarian, but in his writings, that honestly does not come across. If I recall correctly, in The Unseen Realm I don't think he even uses the word "trinity" once out of 413 pages. For example, in the Subject Index (looking at it right now in front of me) when you go to the letter "T", the word "trinity" isn't even included.
And in his book Angels the word "trinity" only has three entries in the Subject Index (likewise currently in front of me), all of them footnotes, and in two of them, the footnote entries are only given so that he may refute the notion that Genesis 1:26 is a reference to the Trinity.
I am likewise pretty sure there is no reference to the Trinity in his A Companion to the Book of Enoch, either, which I have, but which doesn't have a Subject Index at the end.
But I don't yet own all of his books, though two are on their way, namely Reversing Hermon and Demons from Amazon.
Last edited by votivesoul; 03-26-2021 at 01:39 PM.
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03-24-2021, 12:43 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image
The Word in John is just a personification of the Word of God, a figure of speech, by which and through which everything was created, and had life in it.
The purpose of the personification is to explain the transfer, in a figurative way, of the authority of giving life from the Word of God to Jesus. At the end, it is just a beautiful figure of speech to say Jesus is the giver of life.
John clarifies it in his 1 John letter:
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us" - 1 John 1:1-2 KJV
Personification of God's word is not new in the Bible, or the Rabbinical literature. It is a literary instrument to emphasize the authority of the Word of God.
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10618-memra
Quote:
"The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided.
—Biblical Data:
In Scripture "the word of the Lord" commonly denotes the speech addressed to patriarch or prophet (Gen. xv. 1; Num. xii. 6, xxiii. 5; I Sam. iii. 21; Amos v. 1-8); but frequently it denotes also the creative word: "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made" (Ps. xxxiii. 6; comp. "For He spake, and it was done"; "He sendeth his word, and melteth them [the ice]"; "Fire and hail; snow, and vapors; stormy wind fulfilling his word"; Ps. xxxiii. 9, cxlvii. 18, cxlviii. 8). In this sense it is said, "For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven" (Ps. cxix. 89). "The Word," heard and announced by the prophet, often became, in the conception of the seer, an efficacious power apart from God, as was the angel or messenger of God: "The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel" (Isa. ix. 7 [A. V. 8], lv. 11); "He sent his word, and healed them" (Ps. cvii. 20); and comp. "his word runneth very swiftly" (Ps. cxlvii. 15).
Personification of the Word.
—In Apocryphal and Rabbinical Literature:
While in the Book of Jubilees, xii. 22, the word of God is sent through the angel to Abraham, in other cases it becomes more and more a personified agency: "By the word of God exist His works" (Ecclus. [Sirach] xlii. 15); "The Holy One, blessed be He, created the world by the 'Ma'amar'" (Mek., Beshallaḥ, 10, with reference to Ps. xxxiii. 6). Quite frequent is the expression, especially in the liturgy, "Thou who hast made the universe with Thy word and ordained man through Thy wisdom to rule over the creatures made by Thee" (Wisdom ix. 1; comp. "Who by Thy words causest the evenings to bring darkness, who openest the gates of the sky by Thy wisdom"; . . . "who by His speech created the heavens, and by the breath of His mouth all their hosts"; through whose "words all things were created"; see Singer's "Daily Prayer-Book," pp. 96, 290, 292). So also in IV Esdras vi. 38 ("Lord, Thou spakest on the first day of Creation: 'Let there be heaven and earth,' and Thy word hath accomplished the work")....
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At some point, what was just a figure of speech, became a theology, the Logos theology, as an emanation of God, which is imported from the Greek philosophy.
Last edited by coksiw; 03-24-2021 at 12:46 PM.
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03-24-2021, 01:36 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,018
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image
Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw
The Word in John is just a personification of the Word of God, a figure of speech, by which and through which everything was created, and had life in it.
The purpose of the personification is to explain the transfer, in a figurative way, of the authority of giving life from the Word of God to Jesus. At the end, it is just a beautiful figure of speech to say Jesus is the giver of life.
John clarifies it in his 1 John letter:
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us" - 1 John 1:1-2 KJV
Personification of God's word is not new in the Bible, or the Rabbinical literature. It is a literary instrument to emphasize the authority of the Word of God.
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10618-memra
At some point, what was just a figure of speech, became a theology, the Logos theology, as an emanation of God, which is imported from the Greek philosophy.
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James Dunn in his Christology In The Making traces the chronological and theological development of NT Christology, and addresses the personification issue. Tldr there is more than just a strict literary device going on in John's logos-christology.
Now, "emanations" were not unique to Greek philosophy, but are found all over the place. The Word being an "emanation" I believe originates in Tertullian's Montanist theology, which is similar to certain pre-Christian Jewish theologies regarding Metatron and the "shekinah" and their relations to God. Some of the early trinitarian ideas were borrowed from Philo and syncretic speculations about the Logos as a "2nd YHVH" acting as an intermediary function of God.
But as Dunn aptly demonstrates, John's use of logos is consistent with and firmly embedded in OT concepts of the MEMRA (word of Jehovah). John's teaching is that the memra or word of God - His living and active self expression of life and power - finds its complete fulfillment and demonstration in the man Jesus. Thus, "the logos was made flesh".
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