The OT saints apparent disadvantage

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

Does the NT teach this concept ? Yes, we have a better covenant. Does God give more grace now than then ? What about during the other dispensations ?

Acts 17:30 KJVS
[30] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I believe there was a time when God overlooked the ignorance of some. Yet, as Paul says, he commands everyone to repent.

I believe the New Covenant saints are held to a higher standard than those in the covenant of Old.

Luke 12:48 KJVS
[48] But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes . For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

We have a role in the spirit that simply the Old Covenant didn’t have, thats not saying that they’re less than us. The Old Covenant saints were used by the spirit, I mean you can read Hebrews 11 and see nothing short of the supernatural at work.

Yet, in this covenant its no longer a physical tabernacle, its a spiritual one, its no longer a cloud by day and fire by night that leads us, its a spiritual one.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Well, I wouldn't say "immediately" because we have an example in the NT of people believing in Jesus but not receiving the Spirit immediately (the Samaritans). But believers in Jesus have a Divine Promise of receiving the Spirit, whereas OT saints did not have such a promise (only select people chosen by God at various and sundry times could qualify as "prophets" ie people upon whom the Spirit came and empowered for service).



I believe it covers the following in order:

1. A return from Captivity/Dispersal. Followed by
2. A cleansing (repentance and sanctification), and
3. An outpouring of the Spirit.

So they would return from captivity, there would be a cleansing, followed by an outpouring of the Spirit that would result in them being obedient by Divine power. I see this as being fulfilled when they came back from captivity, Messiah came and brought cleansing and repentance, and the Spirit was poured out on Pentecost. I notice that in prophecy often several things are stated as going to occur, they are stated one right after the other, but the fulfillment may not necessarily be simultaneous or immediately after one another.



Yes, Christ inaugurated the New Covenant during His ministry and especially at the Last Supper (instituting the New Covenant Passover memorial), ratified by His death and resurrection.



This was a prophecy directed to the Babylonian Captivity, that they would return by the grace of God to the land of Judah. Once they had returned in repentance (fulfilled in Ezra and Nehemiah), God would incline them to follow His ways (the gross idolatry Judah had been guilty of prior to the Captivity was never really repeated to the same extent, although the rise of various sects within Judaism became a problem), there would be a cleansing of sin (including both repentance as well as an atonement), and an outpouring of the Spirit upon His people.

Interestingly, there is the remainder of the prophecy in Ezekiel:

And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
(Eze 36:28-35)

From this there is a promise that as a consequence of the cleansing the people would dwell in the Promised Land. Yet we know that as a consequence of the crucifixion of Messiah and the persecution of His disciples, the people were both rejected from the (New) Covenant and evicted from the land (in 70 AD). The saints did not remain in the land either. So either the prophecy in Ezekiel regarding the land was a conditional promise (just as the original land promises were essentially conditional), or there was to be a post-AD 70 fulfillment, I am not an expert on Judean history in the post-classical and medieval period, but I suspect there is nothing in history that would correspond to a post-AD 70 fulfillment yet. (The occupation of the land in 1948 to today by unrepentant Christ-hating Pharisees certainly wouldn't count for obvious reasons). I personally suspect the promise was conditional.





Well, yes, the reference in Jeremiah is to the New Covenant. But in reality it's all interrelated, since the New Covenant itself is simply the operating fulfillment of the promises made to Abraham and the Patriarchs:

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
(Luk 1:46-55)

And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
(Luk 1:67-75)

This is an interesting post. It just hit me that after the return to the Captivity there was not much idolatry, but a tremendous zeal for God, and then John came and then the Messiah, and Pentecost. Sometimes we make this strong historical separation between Israel before Christ and during Christ.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

This is an interesting post. It just hit me that after the return to the Captivity there was not much idolatry, but a tremendous zeal for God, and then John came and then the Messiah, and Pentecost. Sometimes we make this strong historical separation between Israel before Christ and during Christ.

That's one reason I recommend people to be familiar with the Apocrypha, they provide a better understanding of the NT conditions.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

That's one reason I recommend people to be familiar with the Apocrypha, they provide a better understanding of the NT conditions.

I need to find some time to read them. I did read a lot of Josephus writings, which are not Apocrypha but it gives some historical viewpoint.
Which ones do you recommend the most?

[james34]

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

The Faith of Abraham

(Genesis 15:1-7; Romans 4:1-12; Galatians 3:1-9; James 2:14-26)

8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

The Faith of Isaac, Jacob, Joseph

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

The Faith of Moses

23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

The Faith of Many

(Joshua 2:1-14)

31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38(Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I need to find some time to read them. I did read a lot of Josephus writings, which are not Apocrypha but it gives some historical viewpoint.
Which ones do you recommend the most?

1st Maccabees, 2nd Maccabees, for some historical continuity.

Then Wisdom, and Ecclesiasticus, for some familiarity with the background ideas that are subtly referenced throughout the NT.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

1st Maccabees, 2nd Maccabees, for some historical continuity.

Then Wisdom, and Ecclesiasticus, for some familiarity with the background ideas that are subtly referenced throughout the NT.

Thank you!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Thank you!

You're welcome. The other apocryphal books are, in my opinion, basically just "interesting jewish religious literature of the first century", and not nearly as important as those previously mentioned works.

Tobit especially, it's practically science fiction fantasy stuff lol.

[Scott Pitta]

Charles Ryrie wrote about soteriology across dispensations in his book Dispensationalism Today. But I no longer have a copy and it is not on google books.

He said certain features remain constant across dispensations.

Justification by faith, the importance of the blood, faith in God, the grace of God in action, etc.

[1 God]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

Charles Ryrie wrote about soteriology across dispensations in his book Dispensationalism Today. But I no longer have a copy and it is not on google books.

He said certain features remain constant across dispensations.

Justification by faith, the importance of the blood, faith in God, the grace of God in action, etc.

Both Law and Grace(Promise) simultaneously existed from the garden until now, also.