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  #21  
Old 03-26-2021, 03:20 AM
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votivesoul votivesoul is offline
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
If God is by nature beyond comprehension or perception by created beings, then they - both humans and angels - require God to manifest Himself in some way in order to be perceived. Thus the idea God has a "form" by which He interacts with His creation, including the angelic beings.
Is God by nature incomprehensible to angels? That we cannot say with any certainty. Angels, we are told in 2 Peter 2:11, are much greater than humans. Even Jesus was made a little lower than them, and then permitted to be made superior to them (Hebrews 2:7 and 1:4).

Further, does God need a "form" to make Himself comprehensible to angels? Can He not speak or communicate with them in some spiritual sense, by direct revelation or insight, that He needs must form Himself into something tangible?

It seems to me only humans, in our limited capacities, require such a form, and then, only without the Holy Spirit. For none of us see a form, except perhaps by vision or trance or dream, and those subjective by nature, and yet we comprehend God, at least to some degree. Why? Because we have the Holy Spirit. We need not the Angel of Jehovah or the Logos of God to appear to us. God has spoken to us through His Son. And that is enough, is it not?
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Last edited by votivesoul; 03-26-2021 at 03:23 AM.
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  #22  
Old 03-26-2021, 05:53 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
I ask these questions, not be be glib or coy, but to spark some thought. Does God have a literal throne, made up of material existence somewhere within definable, three dimensional space?

Or is the use of the word throne a symbol for the authority/rule of God over the cosmos?

As such, is heaven a place, per se, or likewise a symbol of a different dimension of reality?

If a symbol, potent as it is, then there is no real need to speak of God having a visible form in heaven that the angels can see. For what are angels? Are they not like God, that is, invisible spirits?

What need do angels have for eyes? Our eyes require natural or artificial light, shining upon our retinas, transmitting information through our optic nerves to portions of our brains.

This is true of angels?

Rather, the Logos as visible image of God, or the Angel of Jehovah, for that matter, happen on earth. God made Himself visible through the Logos or His Angel, upon earth for human benefit.

There is no need, as far as I can tell, for God to make Himself visible in an already invisible realm, where all is experienced, not through the physical senses, but through the heart and mind, that is, the invisible aspects of ourselves that make us who we are.
I think all this is interesting to think about, but it probably comes down to this for me: I don't see an obvious reason not to think that 1 Kings 22:19, for example, actually happened as described. The prophet Micaiah saw YHWH sitting on a throne with the host of heaven standing by him. Do you understand that this actually happened?
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  #23  
Old 03-26-2021, 06:36 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
If God is by nature beyond comprehension or perception by created beings, then they - both humans and angels - require God to manifest Himself in some way in order to be perceived. Thus the idea God has a "form" by which He interacts with His creation, including the angelic beings.
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  #24  
Old 03-26-2021, 06:37 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
I think all this is interesting to think about, but it probably comes down to this for me: I don't see an obvious reason not to think that 1 Kings 22:19, for example, actually happened as described. The prophet Micaiah saw YHWH sitting on a throne with the host of heaven standing by him. Do you understand that this actually happened?


Exactly!
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  #25  
Old 03-26-2021, 06:39 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Thanks for answering. I have read some of Drysdale, but not the others. Are you familiar with Dr. Michael Heiser? He is a proponent of Logos as Visible Image. He expounds on the idea in his book The Unseen Realm.



Again, thanks for answering. And where might this throne be located, where the heavenly court gathers? What are its dimensions? From what materials is it constructed?
As I understand it I think Dr. Heiser brings the Logos from the Trinitarian perspective.
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  #26  
Old 03-26-2021, 07:15 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Further, does God need a "form" to make Himself comprehensible to angels?
Since the Universe he created cannot contain him probably so.

1 Kings 8:27

But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

IF.....science be correct..... the Milky Way galaxy is so vast it would take a ship going the speed of light 75 thousand years to get across it!

Let that sink in.

And they go on to say there are BILLIONS of such galaxies out there.

AND YET....the creator cannot be contained within these "heaven of heavens!

How COULD an angel, or much less men see something so vast? Thus the need for a finite form. So he can fit inside his creation and be a part of it.

Although he has made himself known in dreams and visions he has ALSO made himself known by his "form", or "similitude".

Numbers 12:5-8

Quote:
And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
His "similitude" is a "portion" of him. His "form".

The angels were made in the image of that form. His "image".

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 03-26-2021 at 07:18 AM.
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  #27  
Old 03-26-2021, 10:09 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
I think all this is interesting to think about, but it probably comes down to this for me: I don't see an obvious reason not to think that 1 Kings 22:19, for example, actually happened as described. The prophet Micaiah saw YHWH sitting on a throne with the host of heaven standing by him. Do you understand that this actually happened?
If he appeared as an inaccessible visual light in the heaven where angels are, what that has to do with a “Logos” or “Word” concept debated here? What makes that a theological concept? God is Spirit, and whatever visible manifestation that of Him that happened in the past had a purpose, and it doesn’t have to be the only one. When God appeared to Abraham in a form of an angel He then stopped being an inaccessible light for a little bit, visited him, and then went back up?
If God then had a visible permanent human form called the Logos, how would you interpret all the references to God’s giant hands, finger, feet, etc...?
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  #28  
Old 03-26-2021, 11:22 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
If he appeared as an inaccessible visual light in the heaven where angels are, what that has to do with a “Logos” or “Word” concept debated here? What makes that a theological concept? God is Spirit, and whatever visible manifestation that of Him that happened in the past had a purpose, and it doesn’t have to be the only one. When God appeared to Abraham in a form of an angel He then stopped being an inaccessible light for a little bit, visited him, and then went back up?
If God then had a visible permanent human form called the Logos, how would you interpret all the references to God’s giant hands, finger, feet, etc...?
I'm not sure I understand you. I made the comment to which you replied to Votivesoul in response to us discussing where heaven is and if there is a literal throne in heaven. I gave 1 Kings 22.19 as an example of a verse that seems to indicate that there is a literal throne on which YHWH in visible form sat.

I'm not advocating for the position I mentioned in the original post. I asked a question about it to those who know the position or embrace it so they could clarify my understanding about it. I wasn't really asking for a refutation of the view, just a clarification.
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  #29  
Old 03-26-2021, 11:34 AM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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When God appeared to Abraham in a form of an angel He then stopped being an inaccessible light for a little bit, visited him, and then went back up?
No. The visible form was WITH the invisible Spirit. When the visible form came down the omnipresent Spirit was still "up" and everywhere else. He never stopped being omnipresent because he went somewhere.

Thats the explanation for the famous Trinitarian objection that YHWH called down fire out of Heaven from YHWH.

There were NEVER TWO YHWHS. Rather he in his FORM called down the fire of God down from his omnipresent power in the skies.

Quote:
If God then had a visible permanent human form called the Logos, how would you interpret all the references to God’s giant hands, finger, feet, etc...?
If there would be a necessary interpretation it could be looked at case by case. Since Gods image looked like a man nothing says appearances of that body in itself need any interpretation.

Ezekiel 1:26-28

26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 03-26-2021 at 11:38 AM.
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  #30  
Old 03-26-2021, 01:09 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
I think all this is interesting to think about, but it probably comes down to this for me: I don't see an obvious reason not to think that 1 Kings 22:19, for example, actually happened as described. The prophet Micaiah saw YHWH sitting on a throne with the host of heaven standing by him. Do you understand that this actually happened?
I am sure the vision Micaiah described in 1 Kings 22:19 happened exactly as described, but I urge you to question how literal it was, in the physical sense of Micaiah's actual eyes inside his head transmitting data through his optic nerves into his brain seeing this. Did not rather he perceive it within his spirit, and see those things as inner mental images?

For example, Simon Peter had a vision while in a trance of a sheet being held by its four corners with all manner of unclean animals piled up inside of it, being let down from heaven to earth, three different times no less, while hearing a voice telling him "Rise Peter, kill and eat".

Now, was there an actual sheet being held at the four corners with literal animals in it hanging somewhere in the sky above Simon's head, that he saw with his actual eyes inside of his head, while a disembodied voice spoke to him?

Or was it an audio-visual representation inside his mind, that he saw with and through the inner man of the spirit?
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Last edited by votivesoul; 03-26-2021 at 09:38 PM.
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