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  #31  
Old 03-26-2021, 01:13 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

For the record, I have no problem with the idea that the Logos is the visual manifestation of YHVH, but ON EARTH, as a regularly occurring theophany, according to the will and timing of God, particularly in the OT leading up to the eventual events described in John 1.

I see no reason, other than theosophical ponderings to recommend that the invisible God, who is Spirit, had to make Himself visible in some kind of literal, three dimensional and physical way to spirit beings (angels, and etc.) who are themselves invisible, immaterial, and intangible, as if they had eyes and needed to actually see Him in order for Him to make Himself known and comprehensible to them.
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  #32  
Old 03-26-2021, 01:24 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

Here is something else to consider:

In John 1:18, the author writes:

Quote:
No one has ever seen God...
While many KJV enthusiasts may argue that it should be rendered "No man hath seen God...", the Greek is clear:

Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε

Theon oudeis heōraken pōpote

God no one has seen ever yet...

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-18.htm

Now, note the emboldened words above (οὐδεὶς/oudeis/no one).

Here is the definition:

Quote:
3762 oudeís (from 3756 /ou "no, not" and 1520 /heís, "one") – properly, not one; no one, nothing.

3762 /oudeís ("no one, nothing at all") is a powerful negating conjunction. It rules out by definition, i.e. "shuts the door" objectively and leaves no exceptions. 3762 (oudeís) is deductive in force so it excludes every (any) example that is included within the premise (supposition).

[3762 /oudeís ("not one, none") categorically excludes, declaring as a fact that no valid example exists.]
See: https://biblehub.com/greek/3762.htm

Read the above carefully. "No one, nothing at all". "Powerful negating conjunction". "Leaves no exceptions". "Excludes every (any) example". Etc. and etc.

In what way then can it be said that angels could see God in some visible form in the heavens?

All visible forms of God recorded in the Bible are not God per se, but rather are theophanic representations of Himself, and Scripturally, all the forms of God that are visible in this way, are either through visions, or dreams, or are temporal, literal manifestations of Himself as physical, three dimensional matter. And they all occur on earth, for the benefit of humanity.

There is no indication, in any way that is literal, and not poetic of prophetic, of God ever appearing in a physical form in the Spirit Realm for the benefit of other spirit beings.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 03-26-2021 at 09:37 PM.
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  #33  
Old 03-26-2021, 01:35 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
As I understand it I think Dr. Heiser brings the Logos from the Trinitarian perspective.
Yes, he states he is orthodox Trinitarian, but in his writings, that honestly does not come across. If I recall correctly, in The Unseen Realm I don't think he even uses the word "trinity" once out of 413 pages. For example, in the Subject Index (looking at it right now in front of me) when you go to the letter "T", the word "trinity" isn't even included.

And in his book Angels the word "trinity" only has three entries in the Subject Index (likewise currently in front of me), all of them footnotes, and in two of them, the footnote entries are only given so that he may refute the notion that Genesis 1:26 is a reference to the Trinity.

I am likewise pretty sure there is no reference to the Trinity in his A Companion to the Book of Enoch, either, which I have, but which doesn't have a Subject Index at the end.

But I don't yet own all of his books, though two are on their way, namely Reversing Hermon and Demons from Amazon.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 03-26-2021 at 01:39 PM.
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  #34  
Old 03-26-2021, 03:05 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

Something else to consider:

1 Timothy 3:16,

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

When was God, who was manifest in the flesh, "seen of angels"?

Was it somewhere in the invisible realm of the Spirit?

Was it not rather when angels sang in the heavens at the birth of the Messiah, or when angels ministered to Jesus after His desert temptations, or when the angels of God ascended and descended upon the Son of Man, or when the angels earnestly desired to look into the salvation of God as promised by the prophets and found it living inside of the Son of God and watched Him give His life for that very salvation?

In any case, the only time God became "visible" to angels, as it were, was after the Incarnation. But even then, we know from John, no one and not anything had actually seen God, in the truest sense.

In John, the Greek word for seeing God, or for seeing the Father (think John 14:9) is horao, which is a Hebraism for experiencing through perceptions of the mind:

https://biblehub.com/greek/3708.htm

It is from the same word for "seen" in 1 Timothy 3:16:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/3-16.htm
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Last edited by votivesoul; 03-26-2021 at 03:07 PM.
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  #35  
Old 03-26-2021, 07:24 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

Quote:
In John, the Greek word for seeing God, or for seeing the Father (think John 14:9) is horao, which is a Hebraism for experiencing through perceptions of the mind:
So that leaves us with a doctrine that no one has EVER PERCEIVED God at any time. If no one has ever perceived God at any time, no one has EVER KNOWN God at any time.
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  #36  
Old 03-26-2021, 07:56 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

Quote:
In any case, the only time God became "visible" to angels, as it were, was after the Incarnation. But even then, we know from John, no one and not anything had actually seen God, in the truest sense.
Or alternatively when it says no one has seen God at any time its talking about HIS OMNIPRESENCE.

The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot CONTAIN HIM. Sounds like it to me. 1 Kings 8:27

We are not without scriptural proof in believing God has angels around him in the heavenly realms.

Isaiah 6:1-8


1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Of course one may speculate there was nothing literal about this vision just as we may speculate it was allowing us to see things happening in a real Heavenly dimension.

Quote:
All visible forms of God recorded in the Bible are not God per se, but rather are theophanic representations of Himself, and Scripturally, all the forms of God that are visible in this way, are either through visions, or dreams, or are temporal, literal manifestations of Himself as physical, three dimensional matter. And they all occur on earth, for the benefit of humanity.
God told Aaron and Miriam that prophets have seen him in dreams and visions but Moses sees his "similitude". Last I looked I think Strongs defines that as something "portioned". Youngs says "likeness".



We believe there was a SPECIAL THEOPHANY. The angel of his presence. The one Jacob knew as his Elohim.

Not merely a pop up angel but the one Jacob called his Elohim.

Gen. 48:15-16

And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Any angel could represent God when they are sent to do so. But Isaiah understood there was a certain one that was HIS PRESENCE.

Isaiah 63:9

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 03-26-2021 at 08:10 PM.
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  #37  
Old 03-26-2021, 09:26 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
So that leaves us with a doctrine that no one has EVER PERCEIVED God at any time. If no one has ever perceived God at any time, no one has EVER KNOWN God at any time.
Recall what the rest of the verse indicates, that Jesus the Son of God is the only One to ever truly make God known. We even get our word exegesis from the Greek word for making known.

So, in a sense, the full disclosure and revelation of Who God is and What He is like was not perceived by the world until the advent of the Messiah. It does not mean no one had any spiritual perceptive experience with Him, but the perception that John is talking about is in the flesh, through the senses, just as it reads in 1 John 1:1.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 03-26-2021 at 09:36 PM.
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  #38  
Old 03-26-2021, 09:36 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Or alternatively when it says no one has seen God at any time its talking about HIS OMNIPRESENCE.

The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot CONTAIN HIM. Sounds like it to me. 1 Kings 8:27

We are not without scriptural proof in believing God has angels around him in the heavenly realms.

Isaiah 6:1-8


1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Of course one may speculate there was nothing literal about this vision just as we may speculate it was allowing us to see things happening in a real Heavenly dimension.



God told Aaron and Miriam that prophets have seen him in dreams and visions but Moses sees his "similitude". Last I looked I think Strongs defines that as something "portioned". Youngs says "likeness".



We believe there was a SPECIAL THEOPHANY. The angel of his presence. The one Jacob knew as his Elohim.

Not merely a pop up angel but the one Jacob called his Elohim.

Gen. 48:15-16

And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Any angel could represent God when they are sent to do so. But Isaiah understood there was a certain one that was HIS PRESENCE.

Isaiah 63:9

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
1.) Seraphim are not angels, they are Seraphim. They are a different class of beings.

2.) Isaiah saw the LORD high and lifted up, but remember it was a vision, a symbolic representation of a spiritual reality. For example, did a burning coal of fire really get picked up and singe his lips? He needed third degree burns on his mouth in order to be cleansed spiritually for his mission as a prophet?

3.) As for the rest, I have not said anything contrary to that. Whether Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, or any of the other patriarchs or prophets, all saw a visible, physical representation of God ON EARTH.

The other prophets who had visions had exactly that: visions.

Have you ever had a vision, or a dream? Did you see anything supernatural or spiritual? But was it with your eyes, or with your mind?

That is my point. Visions are spiritual by nature and do not require eye sight. Even a blind man or woman could have a vision or a dream, and in fact, blind people often have visual dreams:

https://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2020/02...visual-images/

Quote:
Yes, blind people do indeed dream in visual images. For people who were born with eyesight and then later went blind, it is not surprising that they experience visual sensations while dreaming. Dreams are drawn from memories that are stored in the brain as well as from brain circuitry that is developed while experiencing the outside world. Therefore, even though a person who lost his vision may be currently blind, his brain is still able to draw on the visual memories and on the related brain circuits that were formed before he went blind. For this reason, he can dream in visual images. What is more surprising is the discovery that people who were born blind also dream in visual images.
So, are blind people who dream visual dreams seeing anything with their eyes, literally speaking?

Clearly the answer is "no". Same with a vision or prophetic dream. They are visual representations of a spiritual reality so that we, as visual creations can understand whatever it is God is communicating. It doesn't mean, however, that we have seen God in any literal sense, such to say He has or had a visible image of Himself in heaven that angels and other spirit beings could see.
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  #39  
Old 03-27-2021, 05:47 AM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
For the record, I have no problem with the idea that the Logos is the visual manifestation of YHVH, but ON EARTH, as a regularly occurring theophany, according to the will and timing of God, particularly in the OT leading up to the eventual events described in John 1.

I see no reason, other than theosophical ponderings to recommend that the invisible God, who is Spirit, had to make Himself visible in some kind of literal, three dimensional and physical way to spirit beings (angels, and etc.) who are themselves invisible, immaterial, and intangible, as if they had eyes and needed to actually see Him in order for Him to make Himself known and comprehensible to them.
Valid point. You have exposed the crux of this debate between 2 schools of Oneness theology.
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  #40  
Old 03-27-2021, 06:56 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

So we have minimized God down to almost nothing. Something that is never seen or known having no heavenly kingdom one might ponder on or long for.

No real throne, no angels on his left or his right.
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