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  #41  
Old 03-27-2021, 07:05 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

Quote:
1.) Seraphim are not angels, they are Seraphim. They are a different class of beings.
We might ask "who were these"?

2 Chronicles 18:18-21
Quote:

18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.

19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.

20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?

21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
Apparently these kind of glorious, heavenly visions are only for our own minds and give no insight into Gods glory, reality, and kingdom.

Nope, just "literary devices".

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 03-27-2021 at 07:08 AM.
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  #42  
Old 03-27-2021, 08:19 AM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

So do spirits have "spiritual" bodies in the heavenly realms?

Matt 22:30

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

So in the resurrection we will be like the angels.

Will we have bodies? If so that means the angels have bodies.

1 Cor. 15:
Quote:
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
So Jesus said in the resurrection we will be like the angels.

Paul said in the resurrection we will have "spiritual" or "heavenly" or "celestial" bodies.

Since Paul learned from Jesus it would SEEM as if he would teach what Jesus taught.

IMO there is a literal realm where the omnipresent God sits on a throne in the person of his Word/Son.

There are heavenly beings called angels there before that throne. Their bodies are of different substance than ours, nonetheless they have them.
We are made in the same "image" as they are as to their likeness.

They have heads, waists, hands, feet ect.

Among THEM there may be visual differences but there is sufficient info to show the angelic realm exists. I see no reason to try to make it "over" spiritualized to basically take it out of sight out of mind.
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  #43  
Old 03-27-2021, 08:35 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
So we have minimized God down to almost nothing. Something that is never seen or known having no heavenly kingdom one might ponder on or long for.

No real throne, no angels on his left or his right.
I think you are misrepresenting the other view. Saying that the visual depictions of God on his throne surrounded by angels might only be temporary visible manifestations or simply illustrative is not saying they do not exist. Understand, I think you make some good points as well.
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  #44  
Old 03-27-2021, 10:03 AM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

Really close to twosees.
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  #45  
Old 03-27-2021, 10:47 AM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by TJJJ View Post
Really close to twosees.
Why? The Logos is not being referred to as another "DIVINE person."
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  #46  
Old 03-27-2021, 06:39 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
So we have minimized God down to almost nothing. Something that is never seen or known having no heavenly kingdom one might ponder on or long for.

No real throne, no angels on his left or his right.
Brother, don't be ridiculous. Who said anything about any of this not being real?

All I have said is that these things are revealed to us symbolically through visions as if they have three dimensional reality, even though they do not. Just because something is not literal, or tangible to the senses, does not mean it's not real.

Take love. You can feel it, think on it, experience it, and show it, but you cannot find it anywhere as a material substance that you experience with your senses. You cannot see, hear, taste, smell, or touch love in any literal way, but that doesn't mean love isn't real.

Same, for example, with the Holy Spirit. You have received the Spirit, right? Where is the spirit inside of your body? In the organ of your heart? In your bloodstream? Muscle tissue? Living in the synapses between your neurons?

To go a step further, is there any three dimensional, material substance we might call the Holy Spirit inside of you? If so, it can be discovered by X-ray, CAT scan, MRI, or blood test.

But this isn't the case. The Holy Spirit is inside of you spiritually. Same with your mind. You mind is more than the 3 pounds of gray matter under and in your skull. Brain does not equal mind, not fully. And yet your mind is somehow tacitly related to and dependent upon your brain, yet your mind remains intangible, immaterial, and in a sense, wholly separate from your brain.

But your mind isn't real just because it can't be found or discovered scientifically inside of or as a part of your brain?

So, no one is minimizing God to anything. Rather we are, or at least I am, attempting to realize the truth of the Spirit Realm and convey that truth to the best of my ability.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 03-27-2021 at 07:17 PM.
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  #47  
Old 03-27-2021, 06:51 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
We might ask "who were these"?

2 Chronicles 18:18-21


Apparently these kind of glorious, heavenly visions are only for our own minds and give no insight into Gods glory, reality, and kingdom.

Nope, just "literary devices".
Again, don't be so ridiculous, brother.

Who used the phrase "literary devices" in this thread, beside you, and now, me?

And I never said they are for our own minds. I said that's where they take place. Have you never had a vision or a dream from God? Where did it take place? Out there in front of your eyes on the ground before you, or on your living room floor?

Or did it take place somewhere deep within you, inside of your spirit?

And, of course these things give us insight into God's glory, reality, and kingdom, but in a way that has to be correctly understood for what they are:

Visions, things seen in and through the Spirit, through the human spirit, that are real and true, but not in the sense of them being tangible, three-dimensional, or geo-spatially located in the material world.

Finally, as regarding the heavenly host, there are different classifications of spirit beings in the heavens. Seraphim, Cherubim, Watchers, Archangels, Angels, and etc. They are not all the same thing.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 03-27-2021 at 07:18 PM.
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  #48  
Old 03-27-2021, 07:14 PM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
So do spirits have "spiritual" bodies in the heavenly realms?

Matt 22:30

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

So in the resurrection we will be like the angels.

Will we have bodies? If so that means the angels have bodies.

1 Cor. 15:


So Jesus said in the resurrection we will be like the angels.

Paul said in the resurrection we will have "spiritual" or "heavenly" or "celestial" bodies.

Since Paul learned from Jesus it would SEEM as if he would teach what Jesus taught.

IMO there is a literal realm where the omnipresent God sits on a throne in the person of his Word/Son.

There are heavenly beings called angels there before that throne. Their bodies are of different substance than ours, nonetheless they have them.
We are made in the same "image" as they are as to their likeness.

They have heads, waists, hands, feet ect.

Among THEM there may be visual differences but there is sufficient info to show the angelic realm exists. I see no reason to try to make it "over" spiritualized to basically take it out of sight out of mind.
Tell me, what are angels?

Hebrews 1:7,

And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Angels are spirits, flames of fire. Literal, actual flames like you have at a campfire, or on the tip of a lit matchstick? Or something else? Something intangible and undiscernable to the senses, that is, not of this material world?

Regarding 1 Corinthians 15, the reference to "celestial bodies" are to things like the sun, moon, and stars. Verse 41 makes that clear.

Then, as he continues, using the phrase "spiritual bodies" he contrasts spiritual bodies to those bodies which are of or from the earth. The first man, that is, Adam, is of the earth. The last Adam, that is, Jesus, is the Lord from heaven. And the Lord is that Spirit.

So, the bodies we have now, are earthy bodies, and they are in Adam, and they all die. Our flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

The bodies we will be raised in are spiritual.

So, what then, is a spiritual body?

Is it of the earth? Descended from Adam? Flesh and blood?

According to Paul, they are none of these things. They are spiritual, which by definition means invisible and intangible and not discernible by the senses.

Our current bodies are natural bodies, that is, bodies defined and discerned by the psyche, or soul, from the Greek word psychikon translated as "natural".

But our resurrected bodies will not be defined or discerned by the psyche or soul. They will be spiritual, or of or pertaining to pneuma, from pneumatikon, translated as spiritual.

Think of it like this. Jesus rose from the dead bodily. He ascended to heaven. He returned on Pentecost. He has been filling believers ever since with His Spirit. The believers that He fills, do they have the flesh and blood human body of a Jewish carpenter from Nazareth born just over 2,000 years ago inside of them?

I know the question seems foolish, but take it seriously for a moment. The obvious answer is "no". We have the Spirit of Christ inside of us, not His body.

And yet, those of us who have received His Spirit make up the Body of Christ. That word "Body" is the same Greek word used by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, namely sóma.

So, the church is the sóma of Christ, and yet, the church is not the literal, physical, tangible, discernible by the five senses, flesh and blood human body of a Jewish carpenter from Nazareth born just over 2,000 years ago that lived and walked and ministered, and died on a cross, was buried, resurrected, and ascended to heaven as recounted to us in the Gospels.

So, Christ has a spiritual body now, and the body, or sóma is in some way that is hard to comprehend, mysteriously, or in a sense, mystically, the church, and yet the church isn't just a conglomeration of human tissue. The church is a spiritual entity, made up of born again disciples of Jesus Christ.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 03-27-2021 at 07:21 PM.
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  #49  
Old 03-27-2021, 09:03 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

Matthew 18:10 KJV
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Who or what are these angels?

Who and what exactly are they beholding?

How is this reconciled with "no entity has seen God"?
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  #50  
Old 03-28-2021, 07:13 AM
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Re: The Word, God's Visible Image

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Originally Posted by TJJJ View Post
Really close to twosees.
Some need that divine flesh.
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