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  #1  
Old 07-15-2020, 05:20 PM
jmarkoa jmarkoa is offline
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Posts: 52
Help! What have I become?

What am I now?

I've been a third generation oneness UPCI member since birth, baptized in the name of Jesus, spoke in other tongues, and walking toward a Godly life. My Bible reading has increased, my relationship with God has become stronger, and he is showing me things that are leading me into conflict with this organization of people.

I no longer think of "God birthing himself into a body" like my organization is now headed toward. Over the years, I've seen different understandings taught with a change from direct quotes of Bible scripture, to very different ideas I can no longer find in the Bible.

When I was younger, I was taught to have a "minds eye" vision of God as the classic picture of Jesus you might see hanging in any christian home. I was a "list" christian, I had my list of scriptures that showed my understanding of how God became a man, to die for my sins. I knew of only one God, not three persons that made up one God.

One night, I decided I was going to do a "Bible study search" to find the exact scripture that proclaimed what I had been taught and had been saying my entire life, that "Jesus IS God!" How naive I was! Instead, my Biblegateway search returned many scriptures showing God "IN" Jesus, not a single one with the exact quote I was saying!

This was a difficult night for me. After many questions, many tears, and rebuking any evil spirits that were trying to deceive me, I had my first "real" prayer to God asking for help and real truth. I promised I would let go of anything I had learned, or had been taught, if God would show me in His word real truth that can only come from an understanding from Him.

That was a tough, late, Saturday night. The next day at church, God did the miraculous just for me: a lesson called "allowing God to be the Father." The visiting teacher read the exact same scriptures in the EXACT SAME ORDER I had read them just a few hours earlier! God is amazing! That was many years ago, but I still cry every time I speak, or even now as I type, about how great a real relationship is with God! My journey has been a slow realization of how I no longer think about, read about, or talk about Jesus, or God in the same way my church does.

So, I have been trying to understand what everyone else calls me, and what group believes the same as me. I guess these are the defining beliefs I have:

1. God is One God. Not a GOD/Man. Not three persons or two natures. Just one eternal spirit that is not a man. He cannot die. He is not the creation, but rather the creator.

2. Jesus is God's Son. Not God as his own Son. A man. Not a God. He is created by God. Everything he has is given to Him by God. He will be the One we meet in the clouds, to forever be with Him. He will at that time have the government on his shoulders, and we will reign with him in his government. Those he rules over will call Him the Mighty God. He will put down all authority.

3. God is the spirit that descended and remained on Jesus as a dove.

4. Incarnation is not mentioned anywhere I can find.

Is there an organization of churches or men that believe these ideas? I still believe most all other ideas taught by oneness believers.

Thanks in advance for any helpful direction. I'm still looking for that "open door" that I trust will come when the time is right!
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  #2  
Old 07-15-2020, 05:35 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,014
Re: Help! What have I become?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmarkoa View Post
What am I now?

I've been a third generation oneness UPCI member since birth, baptized in the name of Jesus, spoke in other tongues, and walking toward a Godly life. My Bible reading has increased, my relationship with God has become stronger, and he is showing me things that are leading me into conflict with this organization of people.

I no longer think of "God birthing himself into a body" like my organization is now headed toward. Over the years, I've seen different understandings taught with a change from direct quotes of Bible scripture, to very different ideas I can no longer find in the Bible.

When I was younger, I was taught to have a "minds eye" vision of God as the classic picture of Jesus you might see hanging in any christian home. I was a "list" christian, I had my list of scriptures that showed my understanding of how God became a man, to die for my sins. I knew of only one God, not three persons that made up one God.

One night, I decided I was going to do a "Bible study search" to find the exact scripture that proclaimed what I had been taught and had been saying my entire life, that "Jesus IS God!" How naive I was! Instead, my Biblegateway search returned many scriptures showing God "IN" Jesus, not a single one with the exact quote I was saying!

This was a difficult night for me. After many questions, many tears, and rebuking any evil spirits that were trying to deceive me, I had my first "real" prayer to God asking for help and real truth. I promised I would let go of anything I had learned, or had been taught, if God would show me in His word real truth that can only come from an understanding from Him.

That was a tough, late, Saturday night. The next day at church, God did the miraculous just for me: a lesson called "allowing God to be the Father." The visiting teacher read the exact same scriptures in the EXACT SAME ORDER I had read them just a few hours earlier! God is amazing! That was many years ago, but I still cry every time I speak, or even now as I type, about how great a real relationship is with God! My journey has been a slow realization of how I no longer think about, read about, or talk about Jesus, or God in the same way my church does.

So, I have been trying to understand what everyone else calls me, and what group believes the same as me. I guess these are the defining beliefs I have:

1. God is One God. Not a GOD/Man. Not three persons or two natures. Just one eternal spirit that is not a man. He cannot die. He is not the creation, but rather the creator.

2. Jesus is God's Son. Not God as his own Son. A man. Not a God. He is created by God. Everything he has is given to Him by God. He will be the One we meet in the clouds, to forever be with Him. He will at that time have the government on his shoulders, and we will reign with him in his government. Those he rules over will call Him the Mighty God. He will put down all authority.

3. God is the spirit that descended and remained on Jesus as a dove.

4. Incarnation is not mentioned anywhere I can find.

Is there an organization of churches or men that believe these ideas? I still believe most all other ideas taught by oneness believers.

Thanks in advance for any helpful direction. I'm still looking for that "open door" that I trust will come when the time is right!
You believe God came inside Jesus when the dove descended? What do you think was Jesus before and after that event? When Jesus became the Son of God according to you?
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  #3  
Old 07-15-2020, 05:52 PM
Amanah's Avatar
Amanah Amanah is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sebastian, FL
Posts: 8,754
Re: Help! What have I become?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmarkoa View Post
What am I now?

I've been a third generation oneness UPCI member since birth, baptized in the name of Jesus, spoke in other tongues, and walking toward a Godly life. My Bible reading has increased, my relationship with God has become stronger, and he is showing me things that are leading me into conflict with this organization of people.

I no longer think of "God birthing himself into a body" like my organization is now headed toward. Over the years, I've seen different understandings taught with a change from direct quotes of Bible scripture, to very different ideas I can no longer find in the Bible.

When I was younger, I was taught to have a "minds eye" vision of God as the classic picture of Jesus you might see hanging in any christian home. I was a "list" christian, I had my list of scriptures that showed my understanding of how God became a man, to die for my sins. I knew of only one God, not three persons that made up one God.

One night, I decided I was going to do a "Bible study search" to find the exact scripture that proclaimed what I had been taught and had been saying my entire life, that "Jesus IS God!" How naive I was! Instead, my Biblegateway search returned many scriptures showing God "IN" Jesus, not a single one with the exact quote I was saying!

This was a difficult night for me. After many questions, many tears, and rebuking any evil spirits that were trying to deceive me, I had my first "real" prayer to God asking for help and real truth. I promised I would let go of anything I had learned, or had been taught, if God would show me in His word real truth that can only come from an understanding from Him.

That was a tough, late, Saturday night. The next day at church, God did the miraculous just for me: a lesson called "allowing God to be the Father." The visiting teacher read the exact same scriptures in the EXACT SAME ORDER I had read them just a few hours earlier! God is amazing! That was many years ago, but I still cry every time I speak, or even now as I type, about how great a real relationship is with God! My journey has been a slow realization of how I no longer think about, read about, or talk about Jesus, or God in the same way my church does.

So, I have been trying to understand what everyone else calls me, and what group believes the same as me. I guess these are the defining beliefs I have:

1. God is One God. Not a GOD/Man. Not three persons or two natures. Just one eternal spirit that is not a man. He cannot die. He is not the creation, but rather the creator.

2. Jesus is God's Son. Not God as his own Son. A man. Not a God. He is created by God. Everything he has is given to Him by God. He will be the One we meet in the clouds, to forever be with Him. He will at that time have the government on his shoulders, and we will reign with him in his government. Those he rules over will call Him the Mighty God. He will put down all authority.

3. God is the spirit that descended and remained on Jesus as a dove.

4. Incarnation is not mentioned anywhere I can find.

Is there an organization of churches or men that believe these ideas? I still believe most all other ideas taught by oneness believers.

Thanks in advance for any helpful direction. I'm still looking for that "open door" that I trust will come when the time is right!
Arianism?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
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  #4  
Old 07-15-2020, 07:05 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: Help! What have I become?

Thomas said Jesus was his Lord AND HIS GOD.

You have departed from what the apostles believed and taught.
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  #5  
Old 07-15-2020, 07:11 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Help! What have I become?

You joined in May 2009. That was 11 years and 1-2 months ago. In that same year you posted this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmarkoa View Post
Then you may want to consider if your initial assumption is correct. Is it really OK to say that Jesus is God? Those three words, in that order, are not in any scripture in the KJV of the Bible. Why not just quote the Bible and say Jesus is the Son of God? Is it OK to remove "the Son of" from scriptures? There is a clear principle taught in the Bible to not add to or take away from the word of God. Any time you do that there is likely to be a problem with other scriptures.

Instead of thinking that "I and my Father are one" means I and my Father are the same, consider looking at how the scriptures teach the word one elsewhere in the Bible. An example is how a woman and a man come together in marriage and "...they shall be one flesh." Does that mean their flesh is the same? Or, the scripture that says, "...That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God...". Does that mean we all should have the the same mind and same mouth? Clearly, there are even other examples that show that the word "one" does not always mean same.

So you have to ask yourself, do you believe in oneness as the bible teaches? Or, do you not believe in oneness, but rather sameness? They are quite different viewpoints...

Mark
Yet now all of a sudden you are asking what the members of AFF should call you, theologically?

Nah, not playing.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

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  #6  
Old 07-15-2020, 08:39 PM
jmarkoa jmarkoa is offline
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 52
Re: Help! What have I become?

Wow! so many quick responses! Thank you all, I wasn't quite expecting that!

Cokswi,

Thanks! I'm not sure what you mean, I think Jesus was God's son at Jesus' birth. I do see where the Spirit descended and stayed on Jesus, but not before then.

Amanah,

Thank you!

Arianism... ...but the Son is also God (i.e. God the Son).

That's where I get lost. How could the Son be God if God sent the Son?

There is a place I have found while Google-ing the phrase "incarnation vs indwelling." Its called the oneness of God dot org. But, I can't figure out what organization that is. Its the closest thing I have found to my own beliefs.
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  #7  
Old 07-15-2020, 09:47 PM
jmarkoa jmarkoa is offline
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 52
Re: Help! What have I become?

Esasias,

Yes, Thomas did say that. do you think he was correct?

That same chapter, verse 15, Mary spoke to Jesus, "supposing him to be the gardener," but we know he wasn't the gardener. After that, he showed himself to her.

Earlier, Peter denies Jesus three times saying things that were not true. Not until after his resurrection did Jesus once again set Peter straight.

And remember, earlier in chapter 14 Thomas was there with Phillip. Thomas couldn't even comprehend where Jesus was going or how he was going get there, even when Jesus had just explained it to Peter, that he would NOT be able to follow him to his death. And then, Thomas hears Phillip explain that he didn't really even understand who the Father was! So, Jesus explains it to them by stating "...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father..." and then explaining that even further by stating "...the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me...". I think its this more complete thought that Thomas completely missed at that time because later Jesus accuses him of only believing because he was there and able to see the actual scars. My hope is that at some later time Jesus was able to really convey to Thomas the full understanding of the spirit of Father dwelling in him and also his return to the Father. Because earlier he explains this to Mary, "...for I am not yet ascended to my Father: BUT GO TO MY BRETHEREN, AND SAY TO THEM, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.". I believe eventually Thomas was able to get it straight in his head and have his beliefs align with EVERYTHING Jesus said.

We really need to understand Thomas and his situation before solely believing in his statement that appears to be counter to the greater number of statements made by Jesus and others regarding the Father and the Son.
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  #8  
Old 07-15-2020, 10:14 PM
jmarkoa jmarkoa is offline
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 52
Re: Help! What have I become?

Esaias,

Wow that WAS a long time ago! Yes, the struggle is still very real and only growing! Sorry that upsets you. That wasn't my intention. Sorry for the answer I just posted, I thought it was a real question. I'm not really trying to persuade you, I know you must have strong convictions about your beliefs. I can't get away from mine any more than you can yours.

It looks like I might be going through a major life change, possibly being uprooted from this area, so yes, i could be looking for a new church and I really want to fit in with what people believe instead of having the constant debate. These days its really mostly just in my own mind because I have found no one in my current group who believes the same way. Which I'm sure you now understand is why I have checked out for so long.

I reached out to this group to find out how to tell people my beliefs in a shortened way, hoping someone would recognize it, and know what its called. For all my research abilities, I just don't seem to align with any other group! I guess because I still believe so many other Oneness doctrine beliefs.

Sorry if you thought I was trying to bait you into a debate.
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  #9  
Old 07-15-2020, 10:54 PM
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jediwill83 jediwill83 is offline
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,863
Re: Help! What have I become?

You dont come across as one trying to be disruptive. Ive had plenty of thoughts and ideas that have changed over the years and I know what its like to want the truth but not be excoriated for unbelief or asking questions.


Man sometimes I just dont get it...I cant get it until I do...people can pressure me to agree and in the past I gave in just to avoid confrontation and conflict while still having questions and trying to figure things out...some things I pick up quickly and can understand and some answers come only from changing perspective and zooming in or zooming out.


I don't think Ive seen this worded exactly like this and I know that theres all kinds of doctrines floating around but what popped into my head was that Jesus at the age of 12 had already declared that "I must be about my Fathers business." while mopping the floor *again...at the age of 12* with doctors of the law...that would seem to confirm some sort of indwelling spirit working through him.


Who was God speaking to when Jesus was baptized?


"This is my Son in whom I am well pleased...hear him"


Hes not speaking to Jesus...Jesus knew exactly who He was...Hes speaking to the audience other than Jesus...I mean even after Jesuses baptism even JTB had his doubts about who Christ was...also the way you mentioned the dove makes it look like Jesus is walking around with a dove that actually is the Spirit manifested as a dove that wont leave...I dont know...I could be off but Im not sure if Jesus was the Rabbi Radagast the Brown so I must assume that it came down like a dove but stayed in spirit form?
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  #10  
Old 07-15-2020, 11:55 PM
jmarkoa jmarkoa is offline
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Re: Help! What have I become?

Hey Jediwill83,

Thanks for the thoughts.

I see what you mean about the dove thing. I also don't think it was a literal dove that hung out around him.

Interestingly, the dove was never mentioned as something to look for by "...he that sent me to baptize with water...". Its just a personal observation John the Baptist gives. The real qualifier is "see(ing) the Spirit descending, and remaining on him...".

I really do love the Word! It comes alive every time I read it! Letting go of the incarnation has really helped me to better understand and envision much of the future talked about in Revelation. Which is also another topic my fellow church members try to avoid at all cost!
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