Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongues

[n david]

So again, do you believe the words of Jesus in John 3 where He said you must be born of the water AND the spirit? Funny, you used your entire post to argue a word I used, but not what Jesus said. Forget my word and explain why you choose to ignore Jesus' words in John 3? He's pretty explicit in what he's saying. There's nothing left to argue. You must be born of the water AND the spirit. You want to leave the second part out. But Jesus, in John 3, couldn't be any clearer that one must be both baptized and receive the HG to be saved.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

So again, do you believe the words of Jesus in John 3 where He said you must be born of the water AND the spirit? Funny, you used your entire post to argue a word I used, but not what Jesus said. Forget my word and explain why you choose to ignore Jesus' words in John 3? He's pretty explicit in what he's saying. There's nothing left to argue. You must be born of the water AND the spirit. You want to leave the second part out. But Jesus, in John 3, couldn't be any clearer that one must be both baptized and receive the HG to be saved.

Nice try, not answering my question about gift versus commandment.

I have addressed John 3 in other posts, but I'll address it again, for the sake of continuity.

The following are 3 scriptures in which clear writing is given concerning how to be saved. Do they all agree together?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did Jesus just contradict himself in those two passages? Did Peter's version contradict the words of Jesus in Mark 16? Is this a clear contradiction? According to your understanding it is. From what you have said earlier, Mark 16:16 can't possibly be the plan of salvation, it is just Jesus being frustrated with his disciples, which is done because you have to explain away Mark 16:16 as salvation simply can't consist of just repentance/baptism ...

However, these scriptures DO all flow together easily, and there are no contradictions at all when you understand that the spirit of the Lord is present at repentance/baptism accomplishing salvation, and then the full infilling of the spirit of the Lord can be poured out as the Lord chooses in diversities and operations of the gifts of the spirit.

Now, back to commandment versus gift... Your words:

Originally Posted by n david Jesus clearly said you MUST be born of the water AND the spirit. That is not a suggestion. That is not a "check with me later." That's not a "I may or may not give you My spirit at some point during your life." That is a commandment Jesus gave. I find it interesting that you would claim Mark 16 as salvific, but ignore Jesus' words of John 3.

My response:

If the infilling of the HG is a commandment, as you say... how do you command a gift to be given? Is not the Holy Ghost a gift? How can it be a commandment if it is a gift? A gift and a commandment are not compatible.

Does one command the Lord to give the HG gift?

In essence, the concept that the gift of HG infilling is a commandment of Jesus is an oxymoron statement. It is either one or the other. If it is a commandment, then there must be something we do, which then disqualifies it as a gift. A gift is something freely given. So which is it?

So... which is it?

[good samaritan]

The gift of the Holy Ghost will come when one repents and is baptized in Jesus name. The Holy Ghost is not a commandment, but instead the Holy Ghost itself is a gift we shall receive once we have come to God. The difference between KBTW and I is that I believe the gift of the Holy Ghost is evidenced by the supernatural sign of tongues. To me it seems to be a matter of faith. The problem is that many don't feel like tongues is real and it is a lack of faith. Our salvation is very dependent upon our faith.

James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The gift of the Holy Ghost will come when one repents and is baptized in Jesus name. The Holy Ghost is not a commandment, but instead the Holy Ghost itself is a gift we shall receive once we have come to God. . . . I believe the gift of the Holy Ghost is evidenced by the supernatural sign of tongues. To me it seems to be a matter of faith. The problem is that many don't feel like tongues is real and it is a lack of faith. Our salvation is very dependent upon our faith.

amen

[Jito463]

Just as an added thought to help reconcile what KBTW and ND are saying back and forth. Yes, the infilling of the Holy Ghost is a gift, but we must accept it or we are none of His.

If we do not accept the gift, then we are not saved. So while it is a gift, it is also a commandment. It's not a gift in the sense of "we can take it or leave it", it's a gift in that we don't deserve it, but God wants to give it to us anyway.

Without the power and regeneration of the Spirit of God, we cannot live for God in holiness. It is physically impossible.

[n david]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Nice try, not answering my question about gift versus commandment.

Okay, so obviously you're going to try to focus on a word I used (which was a bad choice) and ignore everything else. I'm not going to argue about it. Yes, absolutely the HG is a free gift, but if you do not accept the free gift, you will not be saved. Period. Stop trying to change the subject to focus on an unfortunate choice of a word and answer the question. You claim a person does not need to be filled with the spirit to be saved -- that salvation is exactly as Mark 16 says, belief and baptism. That is not what Jesus said in John 3. You claim Jesus' words are to be believed in Mark 16, but yet are doing all you can to ignore Jesus' words in John 3.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

The following are 3 scriptures in which clear writing is given concerning how to be saved. Do they all agree together?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did Jesus just contradict himself in those two passages? Did Peter's version contradict the words of Jesus in Mark 16? Is this a clear contradiction?

The three together show the plan of salvation. The message by Peter in Acts 2:38 brings it all together. A person must repent (death), be baptized (burial) and receive the HG (resurrection).

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

According to your understanding it is. From what you have said earlier, Mark 16:16 can't possibly be the plan of salvation, it is just Jesus being frustrated with his disciples...

I'm going to stop you here. I never said "Mark 16:16 can't possibly be the plan of salvation..." What I have posted is that I don't believe the topic of discussion was about salvation. IMO, I don't believe Jesus spoke in Mark 16:16 as to give THE step by step plan of salvation. You want to say Mark 16:16 is THE way to be saved because it's what Jesus said. I don't agree.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

However, these scriptures DO all flow together easily, and there are no contradictions at all when you understand that the spirit of the Lord is present at repentance/baptism accomplishing salvation, and then the full infilling of the spirit of the Lord can be poured out as the Lord chooses in diversities and operations of the gifts of the spirit.

I can take a cup and put it next to a pitcher of iced tea. The iced tea is present, but the cup is empty. You want to say that God's presence which draws people to repentance equals being filled with the spirit. It does not. Someone feeling the presence of God leading them to repentance still must receive the HG to be saved. The only way to experience the new birth (salvation) is through the infilling of the Spirit.

Your claim of salvation needing only belief and baptism would deliver a stillborn, lifeless and dead.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Now, back to commandment versus gift...

Nope, as much as you want to continue focusing on my unfortunate choice of a word, I'm not going to. I regret using the word because now you want to focus on my word and ignore what Jesus said. Not going to do it.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Jito463

Just as an added thought to help reconcile what KBTW and ND are saying back and forth. Yes, the infilling of the Holy Ghost is a gift, but we must accept it or we are none of His.

If we do not accept the gift, then we are not saved. So while it is a gift, it is also a commandment. It's not a gift in the sense of "we can take it or leave it", it's a gift in that we don't deserve it, but God wants to give it to us anyway.

Without the power and regeneration of the Spirit of God, we cannot live for God in holiness. It is physically impossible.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The gift of the Holy Ghost will come when one repents and is baptized in Jesus name. The Holy Ghost is not a commandment, but instead the Holy Ghost itself is a gift we shall receive once we have come to God. The difference between KBTW and I is that I believe the gift of the Holy Ghost is evidenced by the supernatural sign of tongues. To me it seems to be a matter of faith. The problem is that many don't feel like tongues is real and it is a lack of faith. Our salvation is very dependent upon our faith.

The main difference between what you believe, and what the scriptures say is this: Salvation takes place at repentance/baptism, and upon that belief in Jesus and being saved, the Lord is able to pour out His spirit. Tongues seem to be the most common manifestation of that outpouring, but because too many accounts do not include the evidence of tongues, it cannot be used as the only measuring stick of receiving the spirit or of salvation.

Tongues are NEVER defined as the measuring stick of salvation in scripture... belief/repentance/baptism are defined in that way. There are so many scriptures that state this... let's start Mark 16:16, in Jesus' words

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

... and then:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

There is no contradiction in scripture or no fancy foot work needed to jump around in the scriptures and prove that repentance/baptism equal salvation. It is stated simply, time and time again.

However, with tongues = the evidence of salvation, not ONE scripture specifically stating such. Lots of fancy foot work goes on to justify that fallacy.

Plain and simple... Repentance/baptism are what is necessary for salvation, and THEN the Lord can gift with the full outpouring of His spirit... not for salvation but for POWER, spoken out of the mouth of Jesus himself:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Jito463

Just as an added thought to help reconcile what KBTW and ND are saying back and forth. Yes, the infilling of the Holy Ghost is a gift, but we must accept it or we are none of His.

If we do not accept the gift, then we are not saved.

And where is scripture and verse that you are not saved without the gift?

Originally Posted by Jito463

So while it is a gift, it is also a commandment. It's not a gift in the sense of "we can take it or leave it", it's a gift in that we don't deserve it, but God wants to give it to us anyway.

Without the power and regeneration of the Spirit of God, we cannot live for God in holiness. It is physically impossible.

Salvation is a gift. The HG infilling is a gift. How then could one refuse that gift, if you are seeking salvation, and believing?

From the mouth of Jesus himself, the HG infilling is power that is given, as a gifting and further empowerment after salvation which consists of repentance/baptism.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

Okay, so obviously you're going to try to focus on a word I used (which was a bad choice) and ignore everything else. I'm not going to argue about it. Yes, absolutely the HG is a free gift, but if you do not accept the free gift, you will not be saved. Period. Stop trying to change the subject to focus on an unfortunate choice of a word and answer the question. You claim a person does not need to be filled with the spirit to be saved -- that salvation is exactly as Mark 16 says, belief and baptism. That is not what Jesus said in John 3. You claim Jesus' words are to be believed in Mark 16, but yet are doing all you can to ignore Jesus' words in John 3.

Yes commandment was a poor choice, but many use it, you are not alone. Glad to see you admitted that error.

I am not the one ignoring the words of Jesus in John 3. You are ignoring Jesus words in Mark 16:16 where salvation is specifically mentioned. It is because with your reasoning, the two are not compatible. I absolutely believe John 3, because the spirit of the Lord has to be present for salvation to take place. I have no problem with any of the scriptures. It is your reasoning that has to disregard Mark 16:16 because it doesn't say what you want it to say.

Originally Posted by n david

The three together show the plan of salvation. The message by Peter in Acts 2:38 brings it all together. A person must repent (death), be baptized (burial) and receive the HG (resurrection).
I'm going to stop you here. I never said "Mark 16:16 can't possibly be the plan of salvation..." What I have posted is that I don't believe the topic of discussion was about salvation. IMO, I don't believe Jesus spoke in Mark 16:16 as to give THE step by step plan of salvation. You want to say Mark 16:16 is THE way to be saved because it's what Jesus said. I don't agree.
I can take a cup and put it next to a pitcher of iced tea. The iced tea is present, but the cup is empty. You want to say that God's presence which draws people to repentance equals being filled with the spirit. It does not. Someone feeling the presence of God leading them to repentance still must receive the HG to be saved. The only way to experience the new birth (salvation) is through the infilling of the Spirit. Your claim of salvation needing only belief and baptism would deliver a stillborn, lifeless and dead. Nope, as much as you want to continue focusing on my unfortunate choice of a word, I'm not going to. I regret using the word because now you want to focus on my word and ignore what Jesus said. Not going to do it.

You admit that you chose a wrong word "commandment" and I applaud you for that, yet you still cannot accept Mark 16:16 as a scripture defining salvation, even though that premise is backed up time and time and time again in scripture. It is all because it doesn't say what you want it to say.

There is no contradiction in scripture or no fancy foot work needed to jump around in the scriptures and prove that repentance/baptism equal salvation. It is stated simply, time and time again.

However, with tongues being the evidence of salvation, you have not ONE scripture specifically stating such. Lots of fancy foot work goes on to justify that fallacy. You can't even produce that scripture, because it is just not there. Of course, more fancy foot work on your part to somehow justify the fact that it can't be found.

Plain and simple though, backed up by multiple scriptures (whereas you can't find even one for what you are saying)... Repentance/baptism are what is necessary for salvation, and THEN the Lord can gift with the full outpouring of His spirit... not for salvation but for POWER, spoken out of the mouth of Jesus himself:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.