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  #181  
Old 02-22-2017, 01:47 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
I agree with you in parts of this. I like to use the term covenant. When we repent and are baptized we enter covenant with God and in return He(God) seals us by his Spirit until the day of our redemption. some of the underlined parts is where I don't understand.

The first underlined statement you said that the believer must seek the Spirit of God. In the second underlined statement you said he "can" be filled with the Spirit. AS if it is an optional thing.

Peter did not say you "can" get the Holy Ghost if you repent and are baptized, but he said you "shall". I don't believe we should bombard new converts with speaking in tongues, but we must show them in the scripture that it is a promise to be received, and it demonstrates God's acceptance of our sacrifice of repentance. Understand that the we are sealed by the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

I have struggled understanding what you believe. At times it seems that you have just refuted the evidence of tongues, but in other places it seems like you believe the baptism of the Holy Ghost itself is optional.
See my answer below from an earlier post in this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jito463 View Post
That's why I posed that hypothetical earlier in the thread. I wanted to find out if she really believed it was an optional thing apart from salvation, or if she thought it was necessary, just not as part of the salvational processes or something else entirely that maybe wasn't being clearly communicated. Unfortunately she wouldn't give me a straight answer, so I'm also uncertain where she stands on the matter.
See my answer below from an earlier post in this thread:

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Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
Salvation takes place at repentance/baptism, and upon that belief in Jesus and being saved, the Lord is able to pour out His spirit. Tongues seem to be the most common manifestation of that outpouring, but because too many accounts do not include the evidence of tongues, it cannot be used as the only measuring stick of receiving the spirit or of salvation.

Tongues are NEVER defined as the measuring stick of salvation in scripture... belief/repentance/baptism are defined in that way. There are so many scriptures that state this... let's start with Mark 16:16, in Jesus' words

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

... and then:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


There is no contradiction in scripture and no fancy foot work needed to jump around in the scriptures and prove that repentance/baptism are necessary for salvation. It is stated simply, time and time again.

However, with tongues = the evidence of salvation, not ONE scripture specifically stating such.

Plain and simple... Repentance/baptism are what are necessary for salvation, and then the Lord can gift with the full outpouring of His spirit... not for salvation but for POWER, spoken out of the mouth of Jesus himself:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
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  #182  
Old 02-22-2017, 04:41 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
See my answer below from an earlier post in this thread:



See my answer below from an earlier post in this thread:
Does Acts 2:38 say you "can" receive the gift of the Holy Ghost or does it say you "shall" be filled with the gift of the Holy Ghost? Your above post says "can".

I guess you are clear enough to what you believe though, so there probably is no need to continue. There is a spectrum of beliefs on this forum and although I may disagree with many, I mean no disrespect personally to anyone. I trust that anyone that is hungry for God will continue to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus.
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  #183  
Old 02-22-2017, 10:02 PM
James_Thomas James_Thomas is offline
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson View Post
The foundation of all legalism found among Oneness Pentecostals is built on this perversion of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I have a question for you.
Why was Jesus Christ baptized?
I have spoken to people about receiving the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues that would say "so you're saying I have to speak in tongues to be saved?", or "so your're saying I have to learn to speak in tongues to be saved?" No, i'm not saying that.

It's NOT that you HAVE to speak in tongues to be saved. And you CAN'T LEARN to speak in tongues to be saved. It's that, when you receive the Holy Ghost, you WILL speak in tongues as a result of being filled with the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Which has been consistent, and persistent, with every Born Again Believer since the Birth of the New Testament Church to this Day!

You don't get good to get God. You get God to get Good!

Act 2:1.. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place...
Act 2:2.. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting...
Act 2:3.. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them...
Act 2:4.. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Why was Jesus Christ baptized?

Mat 3:13.. Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him...
Mat 3:14.. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?..
Mat 3:15.. And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
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  #184  
Old 02-22-2017, 10:59 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
"to save" and "saved" are not the same. KJV translation's use of "saved" is clearly understood to be where someone is currently standing with God. Many English translations use the term being saved in each of the scriptures you used. I am KJV believer, but we must rightly divide the word of truth.

Although our sins are remitted through repentance and baptism, it is not until the judgement that we are actually saved from what most people are meaning when they say they are saved. The fallacy in this way of thinking is that if we are already saved then we cannot be lost. If we are going to be saved we must continue in Jesus Christ.

That is why the baptism of the Holy Ghost is necessary. We need God's Spirit to fill our lives in order to keep us.
The bible speaks as though we are saved in one sense, being saved in another and not yet saved in yet another.
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  #185  
Old 02-22-2017, 11:01 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by James_Thomas View Post
I have spoken to people about receiving the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues that would say "so you're saying I have to speak in tongues to be saved?", or "so your're saying I have to learn to speak in tongues to be saved?" No, i'm not saying that.

It's NOT that you HAVE to speak in tongues to be saved. And you CAN'T LEARN to speak in tongues to be saved. It's that, when you receive the Holy Ghost, you WILL speak in tongues as a result of being filled with the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Which has been consistent, and persistent, with every Born Again Believer since the Birth of the New Testament Church to this Day!

You don't get good to get God. You get God to get Good!

Act 2:1.. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place...
Act 2:2.. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting...
Act 2:3.. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them...
Act 2:4.. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Why was Jesus Christ baptized?

Mat 3:13.. Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him...
Mat 3:14.. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?..
Mat 3:15.. And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Good words.

I see the same disengenuous approach that asks why we think we have to speak in tongues to be saved. It's not the tongues that saves anyone. Its the Holy Ghost that saves that is accompanied by tongues. It's simple misrepresentation to say we think tongues saves.
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  #186  
Old 02-23-2017, 08:19 AM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
The bible speaks as though we are saved in one sense, being saved in another and not yet saved in yet another.
I believe the reason the Bible uses the language of being currently saved, is because of the immediate condition of our souls when we come to the Lord. When someone is truly saved as we term it, then there is an immediate response that takes place. They will have a power over sin that they never had before. In a sense they are delivered at that moment from the bondage of sin on their life. Most people who say they are saved are not looking at it that way, but instead they are usually referring to eternity which suggests that they have already attained.

If we are eternally saved at this present than we cannot be lost. I am sure you and I both agree that a person never loses the freedom of choice to turn and walk the other way. Demas, a companion of Paul, had turned and walked the other way having loved the present world. I know what people are meaning when they say that they are saved, but most of the time I believe that many use the term more loosely than what is meant.

We are currently saved from our sins at the present by being in Christ Jesus, but that is not the same as eternal security. My point on this issue is that there is no magic formula and just because someone adheres to Acts 2:38 that it is not a free pass. Instead, it is just the beginning of their journey with the Lord. They will not be eternally secure until Jesus welcomes them home. In essence, the term "I am saved" suggests eternal security, and although we may not believe that, there are many that do.

Quote:
MT. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KBTW made the point that tongues was not salvational, but only repentance and baptism where. What I was really getting at, is that everything is salvational. We don't hang our salvation off of any isolated event or experience. I don't like to use the term salvational, but instead I would rather use the term Biblical. It will be Christ who delivers our soul from hell and it is Him that determines what is salvational. It should be our desire to obey His word and to seek everything that God has for us.

Many people's whole relationship with God is built upon the premise that they are not going to hell. As if that is the only thing that is important. Of course our eternity is important, but a relationship is not one sided. We enter a relationship with Christ, and we serve Him because of who he is and because He first loved us. Even if there wasn't an eternity we would still serve Him.

I may just be rambling on, but it seems like so many want to know the bare minimum. What is salvational? is their only interest. Jesus must be both Lord and Savior of our lives. I think the question itself reveals the hearts of so many. Thank God for the gospel and the command given in Acts 2:38, but we must continue on in our journey with God.
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  #187  
Old 02-23-2017, 08:39 AM
Jito463 Jito463 is offline
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Many people's whole relationship with God is built upon the premise that they are not going to hell. As if that is the only thing that is important. Of course our eternity is important, but a relationship is not one sided. We enter a relationship with Christ, and we serve Him because of who he is and because He first loved us. Even if there wasn't an eternity we would still serve Him.
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Sometimes hidden dangers spring on us suddenly. Those are out of our control. But when one can see the danger, and then refuses to arrest , all in the name of "God is in control", they are forfeiting God given, preventive opportunities.
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  #188  
Old 02-24-2017, 02:44 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Does Acts 2:38 say you "can" receive the gift of the Holy Ghost or does it say you "shall" be filled with the gift of the Holy Ghost? Your above post says "can".
It says you shall. But it does not say "you shall be filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
I guess you are clear enough to what you believe though, so there probably is no need to continue. There is a spectrum of beliefs on this forum and although I may disagree with many, I mean no disrespect personally to anyone. I trust that anyone that is hungry for God will continue to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus.
I agree with this too. Sometimes we can be so busy arguing over semantics, forgetting there is a lost world out there who have never heard the gospel.
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  #189  
Old 02-24-2017, 02:48 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by James_Thomas View Post
I have spoken to people about receiving the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues that would say "so you're saying I have to speak in tongues to be saved?", or "so your're saying I have to learn to speak in tongues to be saved?" No, i'm not saying that.
But when you connect the dots, even if you don't say it in so many words, you ARE saying that if you don't speak in tongues, you haven't been saved. That is the end result of what you are trying not to say to them. And that is why salvation needs to be taught begins at repentance/baptism, and continues on with the HG with whatever evidence the Lord gives, and not make tongues the eternal judging stick of salvation, in a round-about-way, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James_Thomas View Post
It's NOT that you HAVE to speak in tongues to be saved. And you CAN'T LEARN to speak in tongues to be saved. It's that, when you receive the Holy Ghost, you WILL speak in tongues as a result of being filled with the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Which has been consistent, and persistent, with every Born Again Believer since the Birth of the New Testament Church to this Day!
Acts 2:38 says you shall be filled with the HG...but you know, the "tongues" part is just not there. Just teach that they will be filled with the HG, and let the Lord deliver the gift of the HG as He sees fit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by James_Thomas View Post
You don't get good to get God. You get God to get Good!

Act 2:1.. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place...
Act 2:2.. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting...
Act 2:3.. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them...
Act 2:4.. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Why was Jesus Christ baptized?

Mat 3:13.. Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him...
Mat 3:14.. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?..
Mat 3:15.. And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Amen. The Lord Jesus is good, and it is his GIFT to us of salvation that when we believe, we can receive. And baptism... if it was good enough for Jesus, it is good enough for me!
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  #190  
Old 02-24-2017, 02:52 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
The bible speaks as though we are saved in one sense, being saved in another and not yet saved in yet another.
Yes, it certainly does. That is why I contend that salvation has a beginning and an ending. It begins at repentance/baptism, and ends at the White Throne Judgement where we hope to hear the good words of eternal life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Good words.

I see the same disengenuous approach that asks why we think we have to speak in tongues to be saved. It's not the tongues that saves anyone. Its the Holy Ghost that saves that is accompanied by tongues. It's simple misrepresentation to say we think tongues saves.
But yet... when you connect the dots, the end result is always the same... if you need to have the HG to be saved, and to have the HG you need to talk in tongues, why then, short and simply - what you believe is that you have to speak in tongues to be saved. You dance around the issue, not really saying that tongues is your measuring stick, but it really is. And it should not be. Because there is not ONE scripture in the NT that equates tongues to salvation.

But plenty of scriptures that simply state repentance/faith/baptism are all essential to salvation or being saved, which I've listed in previous posts.
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