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  #81  
Old 02-12-2017, 02:52 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Apostolic Ministers with Guts to Preach 1-Step

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
so you better not miss a step.
That's just it.

Sadly, some people only see steps. Counting them from 1 to 9, but when it's a walk steps are part of the journey, and aren't noticed by the walker.
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  #82  
Old 02-12-2017, 04:30 PM
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Re: Apostolic Ministers with Guts to Preach 1-Step

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
That's just it.

Sadly, some people only see steps. Counting them from 1 to 9, but when it's a walk steps are part of the journey, and aren't noticed by the walker.

You know I've never heard it put like that before and now that I'm hearing it it seems so common sense.

By labeling them as "steps" we start to sound like we have some sort of autism that compells us instead of a relationship like Rain Man counting fence posts....
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  #83  
Old 02-12-2017, 04:54 PM
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Re: Apostolic Ministers with Guts to Preach 1-Step

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Amen. But everything about salvation is a gift. We cannot earn any of it. That's the point that the term GIFT is meant to convey. Not whether something is salvational or not. Grace actually implies gift. But grace is very much salvational.
While I agree that the gift of salvation is free, there is action that has to be taken in order to receive it. That action, has to be taken on our part in order to receive. The Lord is not going to gift us with salvation unless we actively participate in wanting to receive the gift.

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
But does that mean the Spirit is resident into the person and abiding in that one as a temple of the Spirit to get them TO repent when they have not even repented yet? Having the Spirit inside a person means they're the property of the Lord. Is one the Lord's proiperty if he still has to get them to repent and they haven't done so yet?
It seems the Lord chooses who and when to gift His spirit with, as in the case of Cornelius, we know he must have repented because his prayers and alms came up before the Lord, but the Lord gifted him with the HG before baptism. But as soon as he received the HG, he was baptized, so it is the Lord's decision on how and when to fully pour His spirit into a life. But we know that a measure of the spirit must be there for one to even seek repentance.

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Romans 8:9 KJV But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The signs that follow are for those who believe, not a step beyond belief where a person is in wholeness as opposed to partial experience.
Who can know the mind of the LORD? I don't claim to understand why God does what He does, but He certainly can gift with the spirit as He chooses.


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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Yes. But are you saying, not sure so I am asking, the GIFT is the same category as gifts in 1 Cor 12? Like gifts of healing, etc?
I believe that a measure of the spirit has to be present at repentance/baptism, and that the signs that follow will indicate how the gifting of the spirit is working in that life. The Lord chooses what to gift... Paul said so... there are diversities of the spirit.


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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
But these gifts are for those already saved. And simply because the word GIFT was used in Acts 2:38 does not mean it's in the category of gifts that people have AFTER they are saved. Everything from start to finish in salvation is a gift. Even the chance to repent. But people who have the chance to repent are not saved because gifts only come to those already saved.
Mark 16:17 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. I didn't say that, Jesus did! It is quite plain and simple to read. A child could understand those simple words. One is saved after repenting, and being baptized, and the fullness of the spirit is poured out by the Lord through gifts when and as He chooses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Notice gift is used in these verses:

Acts 8:20 KJV But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Notice GIFT is contrasted with EARNING something. Not whether or not something is salvational.

Righteousness is also a gift:

Rom_5:15 But not as the offence, ]so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom_5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom_5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

But righteousness is not given to someone AFTER they are saved as the the gifts of the Spirit imply a person is already saved.

And when the gentiles were saved in Acts 10, the narrative says the GIFT of the Holy Ghost was given them, and they just got saved. And when the Jews saw the GIFT was given to them, they could not refuse them baptism in water. So in this case THE GIFT was distinctly something that told the Jews these people were genuinely saved and had to be baptized.

Acts 10:45 KJV And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do we wait to baptize someone only until after they have a GIFT that you are saying is not salvational?
No, I think you've misunderstood me, and perhaps because I've not stated it clearly enough. Repentance and baptism were all Jesus said were necessary to be saved. Simple enough. And then signs would follow. Those signs he mentioned also were seen throughout the book of Acts as signs given to those after they were saved. So it seems quite plain that one is saved upon repentance/baptism, and signs (giftings of the HG) follow, and perhaps that order can be changed, as the Lord deems so, as in Cornelius' case. Who are we to tell the Lord what He can and can't do?



Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Is righteousness salvational? It's a gift. It seems you are thinking that because something is called a gift it is not salvational. But without righteouenss we are lost.

Gifts are indeed GRANTED and not earned after salvation. But the common denominator is that something like the gift of righteousness is salvational and IT IS NOT EARNED. Things are not earned BEFORE salvation to save us nor after. Some gifts are after and some are before salvation. So, the distinction is not that GIFTS COME AFTER salvation.

No, I sincerely believe we all agree that after noting righteousness is a GIFT, then we realize gifts are not to indicate something that is not salvational. Gifts indicate something is not worked for, and that's all.



Always appreciate your words, sister.*

(Caps used for emphasis not hollering). lol
Thanks Bro. I always enjoy interacting and discussing with you too. Iron sharpening iron, and if there is any error in my reasoning, I do want to know, so this is good, to discuss it here.

But I just can't see how the words of Jesus in Mark 16:17 could be any plainer. There is no other place in scripture that speaks so simply of what salvation consists of. And the giftings of the spirit - that is the Lord's to do, not mine. His righteousness is a gift, and it cannot be earned, of that I fully agree. Righteousness is listed as a fruit of the spirit, as is love, joy, peace and so on.

The spirit gifts and gives as the Lord chooses, and perhaps even as we ask him!
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  #84  
Old 02-12-2017, 04:58 PM
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Re: Apostolic Ministers with Guts to Preach 1-Step

Trying to simplify this:

The spirit of the Lord is present in a measure, or in part at repentance/baptism, but the fullness or complete infilling of the spirit takes place when the Lord decides the time is right, and the giftings of the spirit are varied and diverse, as Paul said in 1 Cor. 12.
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  #85  
Old 02-12-2017, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
Trying to simplify this:

The spirit of the Lord is present in a measure, or in part at repentance/baptism, but the fullness or complete infilling of the spirit takes place when the Lord decides the time is right, and the giftings of the spirit are varied and diverse, as Paul said in 1 Cor. 12.
Through experienced with myself and many others, I've found that is not the Lord waiting to do something at his time but he's waiting on us to get or hearts in the proper place before he can fill us.
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  #86  
Old 02-12-2017, 06:09 PM
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Re: Apostolic Ministers with Guts to Preach 1-Step

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Originally Posted by jediwill83 View Post
You know I've never heard it put like that before and now that I'm hearing it it seems so common sense.

By labeling them as "steps" we start to sound like we have some sort of autism that compels us instead of a relationship like Rain Man counting fence posts....
Excellent!
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  #87  
Old 02-12-2017, 06:10 PM
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Re: Apostolic Ministers with Guts to Preach 1-Step

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
100% correct. Calvinism has two groups, one unconditionally saved, and the other unconditionally lost. No gray areas. If they don't live saved, act saved, smell saved, then they are lost, hook, line, and stinking.
And even if they cross all i's and dot all t's they still have no assurance.
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  #88  
Old 02-12-2017, 06:10 PM
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Re: Apostolic Ministers with Guts to Preach 1-Step

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Through experienced with myself and many others, I've found that is not the Lord waiting to do something at his time but he's waiting on us to get or hearts in the proper place before he can fill us.
100%
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  #89  
Old 02-12-2017, 06:11 PM
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Re: Apostolic Ministers with Guts to Preach 1-Step

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And even if they cross all i's and dot all t's they still have no assurance.
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  #90  
Old 02-12-2017, 10:16 PM
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Re: Apostolic Ministers with Guts to Preach 1-Step

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I have come to believe that doctrinal content has very little to do with mass appeal, except for the fact that according to the bible 'most people don't want the truth' (paraphrased, of course).

There are big Mormon churches, big Catholic churches, big Baptist churches, big Charismatic churches, and big Pentecostal churches (even some big Oneness Pentecostal churches). These days, it seems the deciding factor for large numbers is the answer to the questions "How good is the music?", "How nice is the building?", "How interesting is the preacher?", and "What does the church offer in the way of services or products for my kids?"
Do you believe that perfect doctrinal content is the most important thing in a church?
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