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  #221  
Old 05-26-2021, 01:43 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

Re: the issue of a pre-baptism understanding of the godhead.

"The godhead" has, because of trinitarian speculative philosophy, become a catch word for "deep things of theology proper concerning the nature and person of God". Biblically, though, it simply means God's deity, those qualities that make Him God as opposed to some other species of life.

In THIS discussion, the term should simply be referring to "Is God One, or more than one?"

The apostles did not leave a record of pre-baptismal catechizing in speculative theology, because such would have been wholly unnecessary. Jews already had a monotheistic non trinitarian conception of God derived straight from Scripture. The Gentiles we see in Acts etc are for the most part Gentiles who are already "God-fearers", ie non Jews that have accepted Judean monotheism as Truth. For the most part they are being found in synagogues already worshipping Jehovah along with local Judeans when Paul shows up to introduce them to Messiah. So these Gentiles would already have a Judean Scriptural monotheistic non-trinitarian view of God.

Heathen paganised Gentiles were also already familiar with the concept of God as believed by Jews. In preaching Jesus to them as the Messiah sent by the one sole creator God they would not have required a catechism instructing them on the errors of the trinity. Especially since trinitarianism did not even come on to the scene until a couple centuries later anyway.

So, in the 1st century, "faith in God" as preached by the apostles assumes a priori a monotheistic non trinitarian conception of God. Since that is the case, and since saving faith must be the same original faith once delivered to the saints, it follows that the faith that saves TODAY includes a faith in a monotheistic non trinitarian God.

Having said that, it has been my experience that a large number if not the majority of new "trinitarian" believers actually have a basic monotheistic non trinitarian conception of God in spite of them using the term "trinity". Most trinitarians (the average run of the mill pew warmer) does not really have a developed creedally correct trinitarian theology. They just use the term trinity because it's what they hear and it's all they know.
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  #222  
Old 05-26-2021, 01:53 PM
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

I think there is a bigger issue concerning the intention in baptism. Peter told the crowd to be baptised "for the remission of sins". This tells me that baptism is for the remission of sins, and that such a concept was part and parcel of apostolic evangelistic preaching. The evangelistic message therefore includes the concept that baptism is for the remission of sins, and not for the purpose of publicly announcing one's sins have already been forgiven, or for the purpose of officially joining a local assembly, etc.

It is in baptism that we by faith wash away our sins via the blood of Christ. The fundamental core elements of evangelistic preaching are found in Hebrews 6:1ff, and focus on repentance and faith, and "baptisms" (washings). Washings in a Biblical context refers to CLEANSING. So it is that the idea of "how to be cleansed from the pollution of sin" is a key component in apostolic evangelistic preaching. Which in turn means that preaching the PURPOSE of baptism is part of the pre conversion message of the Gospel.

The Ethiopian eunuch was reading about the prophesied sacrifice of Christ. Philip expounded to him how that prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. The eunuch's response was to ask if he could be baptised. Why? Where is the logical connection there? NOBODY listening to Billy Graham or any other evangelical type evangelistic message will be asking about getting baptised. They would instead ask about "going to the altar" or "asking Jesus into their heart" or at the least "What do I do to be saved?" In fact, if said person DID make the connection it would be because of what the Baptist or AoG or other evangelical minister would call a "false view of the role of baptism." Plenty of non Christians think of baptism as the rite by which they become a Christian and wash away their sins. And evangelical types are always quick to "correct such erroneous views". Prior to being baptised, such persons in such environments will have already had the evangelical reason for baptism presented to them. They would be already indoctrinated into the evangelical view of baptism, in other words, prior to being baptised. Because no evagelicals baptise people IMMEDIATELY after preaching evangelistically to them. Instead they give an altar call, and then "schedule a baptism later". Or at the very least they will give a brief run down of their idea of "why baptism". So all such persons baptised by these folks already have a distorted unscriptural view of the meaning and purpose of baptism prior to being baptised.

But as already noted, the eunuch's response was to ask if he could be baptised. This means the eunuch received - as part of the evangelistic preaching he was exposed to - knowledge of the proper Scriptural role baptism plays in conversion and salvation. Which in turn means a candidate for apostolic baptism is reasonably expected to understand what baptism is and why it is done before being baptised.

So then, when a person has been baptised for a different reason and purpose than the Scriptural reason, and with an unscriptural view of the purpose of baptism, is their baptism valid? Is it really a BAPTISM? Seems to me it is not.

For those who would argue otherwise, I'd like to see an actual positive case for why they think such a pseudo-baptism qualifies as a valid apostolic baptism.
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Last edited by Esaias; 05-26-2021 at 02:02 PM.
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  #223  
Old 05-26-2021, 02:06 PM
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Great response Esaias!


I mean it all just seems kind of like common sense, to me...
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  #224  
Old 05-26-2021, 05:09 PM
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
When the Gentiles received the Spirit, Peter asked "Can anyone forbid that these should not be baptised?" The implication is that the church has the authority and indeed the responsibility to investigate candidates for baptism to see whether or not they are suitable and eligible. This in turn means that each proposed baptism must be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

In other words, we should not be looking for an answer to the question "What do we do with people coming from some particular denomination?" so much as "What is THIS PARTICULAR PERSON'S situation?"

Hope that makes sense.
And the UPCI is notorious for rushing people into the baptistry without first discerning whether the candidate has fully believed in the message of Jesus Christ and him crucified, risen, exalted. But hey, just as long as we say the right words over them.
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  #225  
Old 05-26-2021, 05:11 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
My question wasn't "Do churches demand understanding the godhead be a requirement before being born again?" It was "Does faith in God include a grossly heretical view" of certain things?
Like tithing, authoritarian church dictator, church buildings, etc?
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  #226  
Old 05-26-2021, 05:41 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
My question wasn't "Do churches demand understanding the godhead be a requirement before being born again?" It was "Does faith in God include a grossly heretical view" of certain things?
According to Trinitarian apologist Dr James White, half of Trinitarians are modalists unknowingly.
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  #227  
Old 05-26-2021, 08:52 PM
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
And the UPCI is notorious for rushing people into the baptistry without first discerning whether the candidate has fully believed in the message of Jesus Christ and him crucified, risen, exalted. But hey, just as long as we say the right words over them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Like tithing, authoritarian church dictator, church buildings, etc?
I guess you don't visit AFF for the "deep thought provoking discussions"?

Oh well, this discussion was interesting. Thanks for Coksiw and Votive for actually discussing things.
I'm moving on.
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  #228  
Old 05-27-2021, 12:35 AM
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
According to Trinitarian apologist Dr James White, half of Trinitarians are modalists unknowingly.
Do you have a source for this? I find it interesting.
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