Help! What have I become?

[Michael The Disciple]

Shouldnt be that hard to find a group like you believe.

Have you ever heard of Joel Hemphill?

About the Author: Joel Hemphill
Joel Hemphill
After 50 years as a Oneness Pentecostal minister, Joel Hemphill came to the understanding that not only is the Doctrine of the Trinity not scriptural, but that modern-day Oneness doctrine is lacking as well. While Brother Hemphill still holds to the Jesus Name – Apostolic message, he has come to the realization that the Jesus Name Apostolics in the Book of Acts were not proclaiming the post-biblical Oneness view of God. They did not declare God as three “manifestations.” Rather, they declared the Father himself as the only one who is truly God. And, Jesus, not as God, but rather God’s virgin born human son – the man whom God has “made to be Lord and Christ” (Acts 2.36). The Apostles in the Book of Acts taught repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus “Christ” not Jesus “Our God” (Acts 2.38). Since receiving the revelation of the Father as the only true God and Jesus as God’s Messiah, Joel Hemphill has traveled, spoken and written four books on this subject, encouraging Trinitarians and Oneness believers alike to reconsider their views about God and Christ. He exhorts everyone to embrace the – full apostolic message of the Bible: The One God the Father and One Messiah of Acts.

A number of Oneness Pentecostals are drifting away from the glorious revelation of Christ.

I have met several in the last few years. And even the way many in Oneness teach the deity of Christ shows they accept what you teach as being the norm.

As for me Jesus is the one true God.

John 1:10

He was in the world and the world was MADE BY HIM.....and the world knew him not.

Most of the Oneness world has not fully embraced the fact that right now Jesus is also a man. They think in terms he WAS a man.

Jesus IS both God and man. We have to do better at teaching both sides of the truth.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Wow! so many quick responses! Thank you all, I wasn't quite expecting that!

Cokswi,

Thanks! I'm not sure what you mean, I think Jesus was God's son at Jesus' birth. I do see where the Spirit descended and stayed on Jesus, but not before then.

Amanah,

Thank you!

Arianism... ...but the Son is also God (i.e. God the Son).

That's where I get lost. How could the Son be God if God sent the Son?

There is a place I have found while Google-ing the phrase "incarnation vs indwelling." Its called the oneness of God dot org. But, I can't figure out what organization that is. Its the closest thing I have found to my own beliefs.

So Jesus didn't have the Spirit of God before he was baptized?
Did Jesus have the nature of God?

I think your confusion comes down to the fact that you are struggling with the modern language of Oneness groups not matching 100% with the language of the first Christians in the book of Acts or the Epistles.

I'm not sure there is any possibility at this point to persuade you back from your view of the Christ, but if there is any, we can continue with the discussion.

I will begin by saying, Jesus Christ has several functions. He mediates between humanity and God. In effect, He is our high priest, and also the lamb. He also reveals the invisible God to us, and is the Lord over everything. Do you agree with me?

[Michael The Disciple]

I think your confusion comes down to the fact that you are struggling with the modern language of Oneness groups not matching 100% with the language of the first Christians in the book of Acts or the Epistles.

Exactly!

[jmarkoa]

Michael The Disciple,

Thank yo sooo much! Its like reading thoughts straight out of my own mind! It can be very comforting knowing that there are people out there that share your same thoughts! I think I have seen their site in the past, not sure why I never made the full connect... I WILL be checking out their entire message.

Really, Michael, Thank You!!!!

[Esaias]

Tell him about the space suit...

[jmarkoa]

Coksiw,

Thanks for having patience with me, I understand the need to connect with others and test our beliefs against the Bible. I am ALWAYS open to discussion, but this issue seems so divisive, you either think one way or the other, that I find it harder and harder to communicate effectively without it turning very negative.

For me, the negative attacks hurt way too much. I take it too personally. I'm probably too sensitive, I guess. I have hurt people in the past with my words, which I never intended, and it only ends up further hurting me.

If you truly are interested in these thoughts inside my head, I'll write in greater detail. But here is the most basic way I can describe how I have changed in how I see God in my mind. I envision him as the second voice in Revelations and all that is described there as Him. I now think of Jesus as a mediator, standing in the midst of that God, in his glorified body that's described there with the first voice. If I were able to see into that realm, I believe I would see just as others have described. That viewpoint has changed from a single Christlike deity image I used to have for both God AND his begotten Son.

Yeah, its now really hard to just put in into words such complex ideas. In the past, it was really easy... I would just say Jesus IS God.

Hope that helps to understand this is not just a language issue. My view of everything has shifted. I believe, its shifted for the better. I know you don't see it that way, and I am very familiar with disappointing people by the things I say I believe. I really don't want to offend other's beliefs, so for quite some time now, I've stopped having real Christian relationships. The kind where you lift each other up, correct each other, etc... My very best friends believe its OK to say God birthed himself into a baby and died for my sins. It sounds so foreign to me.

So, this change I sense coming, I want it to be an open door into a real relationship with like minded believers. I don't really know what's next, but I believe faith requires action. That is my motivation for this new research.

[jmarkoa]

Esaias,

I don't know what that means. I've never mentioned anything about space, or a space suit. Did you comment on the wrong thread?

[jmarkoa]

Michael,

After rereading your post, I don't get this, "...even the way many in Oneness teach the deity of Christ ...". Can you better explain what you think some are teaching?

My limited knowledge is of Oneness teaching is only of two separate beliefs, one that God came as Jesus as a man, and one that Jesus was a man sent by God. I know there was the whole "divine flesh" a while back. I thought that went away.

[jmarkoa]

Michael,

Since you mentioned how you see John 1 and what it means to your belief of Oneness, I'll briefly share my own beliefs and how I read those scriptures.

My belief is that the "He" in verse 10 you mentioned, is actually God referenced in the first two verses.

I only see God and John the Baptist in the first 13 verses. Jesus isn't mentioned until verse 14. It explains that Jesus was made by God. Jesus was made flesh. And John, the writer, clears up any confusion with verse 18:

"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

I see Jesus as the second Adam, who was also a son of God, but not God. Only, Jesus was created through the miracle of a virgin birth, not by God's hands the way Adam was made. So, I'm sure Jesus was given the same type of relationship that Adam got from God. Adam walked and talked with God and did amazing things with his Creator. So my belief is that God must have been just as good a Father to Jesus as He was to Adam; leading, guiding, teaching and loving Him. By the age of 12 Jesus already knew his life was to be for a witness of God. He mistakenly thought it was to happen immediately at that early age. But, he had more to learn from his mom and dad.

Anyway, I've probably rambled on too far. But, that is how I read those scriptures.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Michael,

After rereading your post, I don't get this, "...even the way many in Oneness teach the deity of Christ ...". Can you better explain what you think some are teaching?

My limited knowledge is of Oneness teaching is only of two separate beliefs, one that God came as Jesus as a man, and one that Jesus was a man sent by God. I know there was the whole "divine flesh" a while back. I thought that went away.

There are some at least "former" Oneness believers such as Gino Ginnings, Gabe the Street Preacher, and the Word Prophet all who appear on Youtube who do not believe Jesus pre existed as God.

Best I can tell they teach the logos was Gods thought or plan that he designed in eternity. The thought or plan was revealed as the man Jesus at his birth. At his baptism or somewhere along the way the fullness of God entered him.

They may say he is God but ONLY with the qualification that God or the Father was "in him".

What the teachers of this doctrine seem to agree on is that Jesus did NOT PRE EXIST.