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Old 11-14-2021, 10:58 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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The ten commandments

I just read a book by Eric Tokajer in which he states that the tablets of testimony from mt Sinai which were broken and then replaced contained the commandments from Exodus 34 rather than what is traditionally considered to be the "Ten Commandments"

Exodus 34
Brenton's Septuagint Translation
New Stone Tablets

1And the Lord said to Moses, Hew for thyself two tables of stone, as also the first were, and come up to me to the mountain; and I will write upon the tables the words, which were on the first tables, which thou brokest. 2And be ready by the morning, and thou shalt go up to the mount Sina, and shalt stand there for me on the top of the mountain. 3And let no one go up with thee, nor be seen in all the mountain; and let not the sheep and oxen feed near that mountain. 4And Moses hewed two tables of stone, as also the first were; and Moses having arisen early, went up to the mount Sina, as the Lord appointed him; and Moses took the two tables of stone. 5And the Lord descended in a cloud, and stood near him there, and called by the name of the Lord. 6And the Lord passed by before his face, and proclaimed, The Lord God, pitiful and merciful, longsuffering and very compassionate, and true, 7and keeping justice and mercy for thousands, taking away iniquity, and unrighteousness, and sins; and he will not clear the guilty; bringing the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and to the children's children, to the third and fourth generation. 8And Moses hasted, and bowed to the earth and worshipped; 9and said, If I have found grace before thee, let my Lord go with us; for the people is stiff-necked: and thou shalt take away our sins and our iniquities, and we will be thine.


The LORD Renews the Covenant

10And the Lord said to Moses, Behold, I establish a covenant for thee in the presence of all thy people; I will do glorious things, which have not been done in all the earth, or in any nation; and all the people among whom thou art shall see the works of the Lord, that they are wonderful, which I will do for thee.

11Do thou take heed to all things whatsoever I command thee: behold, I cast out before your face the Amorite and the Chananite and the Pherezite, and the Chettite, and Evite, and Gergesite and Jebusite: 12take heed to thyself, lest at any time thou make a covenant with the dwellers on the land, into which thou art entering, lest it be to thee a stumbling-block among you. 13Ye shall destroy their altars, and break in pieces their pillars, and ye shall cut down their groves, and the graven images of their gods ye shall burn with fire. 14For ye shall not worship strange gods, for the Lord God, a jealous name, is a jealous God; 15lest at any time thou make a covenant with the dwellers on the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and sacrifice to their gods, and they call thee, and thou shouldest eat of their feasts, 16and thou shouldest take of their daughters to thy sons, and thou shouldest give of thy daughters to their sons; and thy daughters should go a whoring after their gods, and thy sons should go a whoring after their gods. 17And thou shalt not make to thyself molten gods.

18And thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread, as I have charged thee, at the season in the month of new corn; for in the month of new corn thou camest out from Egypt.

19The males are mine, everything that opens the womb; every first-born of oxen, and every first-born of sheep. 20And the first-born of an ass thou shalt redeem with a sheep, and if thou wilt not redeem it thou shalt pay a price: every first-born of thy sons shalt thou redeem: thou shalt not appear before me empty.

21Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: there shall be rest in seed-time and harvest. 22And thou shalt keep to me the feast of weeks, the beginning of wheat-harvest; and the feast of ingathering in the middle of the year. 23Three times in the year shall every male of thine appear before the Lord the God of Israel. 24For when I shall have cast out the nations before thy face, and shall have enlarged thy coasts, no one shall desire thy land, whenever thou mayest go up to appear before the Lord thy God, three times in the year.

25Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifices with leaven, neither shall the sacrifices of the feast of the passover remain till the morning.

26The first-fruits of thy land shalt thou put into the house of the Lord thy God: thou shalt not boil a lamb in his mother's milk.

27And the Lord said to Moses, Write these words for thyself, for on these words I have established a covenant with thee and with Israel. 28And Moses was there before the Lord forty days, and forty nights; he did not eat bread, and he did not drink water; and he wrote upon the tables these words of the covenant, the ten sayings.

29And when Moses went down from the mountain, there were the two tables in the hands of Moses, - as then he went down from the mountain, Moses knew not that the appearance of the skin of his face was glorified, when God spoke to him. 30And Aaron and all the elders of Israel saw Moses, and the appearance of the skin of his face was made glorious, and they feared to approach him. 31And Moses called them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the synagogue turned towards him, and Moses spoke to them. 32And afterwards all the children of Israel came to him, and he commanded them all things, whatsoever the Lord had commanded him in the mount of Sina. 33And when he ceased speaking to them, he put a veil on his face. 34And whenever Moses went in before the Lord to speak to him, he took off the veil till he went out, and he went forth and spoke to all the children of Israel whatsoever the Lord commanded him. 35And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that it was glorified; and Moses put the veil over his face, till he went in to speak with him.



The English translation of The Septuagint by Sir Lancelot Charles Lee Brenton (1851)
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Old 11-14-2021, 11:06 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: The ten commandments

Esaias? Do you think keeping the Sabbath and feasts were commands that were written on the tablets on Sinai?

Last edited by Amanah; 11-14-2021 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 11-14-2021, 12:39 PM
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Re: The ten commandments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Esaias? Do you think keeping the Sabbath and feasts were commands that were written on the tablets on Sinai?
I believe the two tablets contained the ten commandments from Ex 20. I have heard this theory before about Ex 34 but I haven't seen anything to indicate those were what was written.

Deuteronomy 4:13 KJV
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
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Old 11-14-2021, 01:04 PM
Jito463 Jito463 is offline
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Re: The ten commandments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Esaias? Do you think keeping the Sabbath and feasts were commands that were written on the tablets on Sinai?
That was written on the third tablet.

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Old 11-14-2021, 03:20 PM
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Re: The ten commandments

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Originally Posted by Jito463 View Post
That was written on the third tablet.

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Old 11-14-2021, 03:58 PM
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Re: The ten commandments

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Originally Posted by Jito463 View Post
That was written on the third tablet.

I remember that scene. Lol
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Old 11-14-2021, 09:43 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: The ten commandments

Paul’s interpretation of the veil covering Moses’ face.

[11] For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
[12] Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
[13] And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
[14] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
[15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
[16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
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Old 11-22-2021, 01:48 AM
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Re: The ten commandments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Paul’s interpretation of the veil covering Moses’ face.

[11] For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
[12] Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
[13] And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
[14] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
[15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
[16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(2Co 3:3-18)
V. 3 identifies the Christians as epistles of Christ written by the Spirit on the heart, just like here:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Jer 31:33)
And here:
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
(Eze 36:26-27)

V. 6 Is about the superiority of the new covenant over the old, as here:
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(Rom 8:3-9)
V. 7 speaks of the glory of God revealed to Moses during his time in the mountain when he received the divine law of God to give to the people. The glory was so great that the people, as usual, couldn't handle it. Just as they couldn't handle hearing the voice of God speaking, and so asked Moses to go up and speak with God for them, they couldn't stand to see the glory of God that reflected in Moses' face. So he had to put a vail over his face to cover up the glory. This shows that while people are without Christ, but merely in an old covenant relationship with God, based upon the mere letter of the law written on tables of stone, and NOT having been circumcised in heart and regenerated by the Spirit of Christ, the glory of God is vailed and hidden from them. This old covenant glory (the glory of God reflected in the old covenant) was to be done away with (as per Jeremiah previously quoted) to make way for the new covenant.

V.8 is saying the new covenant glory (the glory of God shining in and through Christ) is better and more glorious than the old.

V.9 is saying the old covenant was a ministration of condemnation, it could only identify sin and condemn it, it could not produce righteousness in the heart, meaning it could not in itself cause people to be righteous and cause them to be like God. This of course is exactly what Jeremiah and Ezekiel were talking about, and which Paul reaffirmed in Romans 8 (see above).

V. 10-11 are saying the glory of the old covenant as awesome as it was has no comparison to the glory of the new, which is the ministration of righteousness (according to verse 9). That is, the old covenant has no grounds for boasting because it could not produce righteousness, whereas the new covenant DOES have the ground for boasting because it DOES produce righteousness. Again, see Romans 8.

V. 12-13 shows that Gospel preaching is the undiluted testimony of the unvailed glory of God revealed in Christ, and is NOT like the enactment of the old covenant which required a vail over Moses' face.

V. 14 points out the people were blinded (actually, per the Greek, "hardened") at Sinai. As proven by their repeated apostasies during the time in the wilderness, as mentioned here:
Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
(Psa 95:8-11)
V. 14-15 further states that this hardness of heart continues even up to Paul's time. That is, the Jews were generally hard hearted and "uncircumcised in heart" not only at Sinai and in the wilderness, but all through their history up to Paul's day. They read the old covenant scriptures and their hardened hearts prevent them from seeing the glory of God, that is, they remain uncircumcised in heart and void of true understanding. BUT that blindness or hardness is taken away in Christ, that is, by hearing and believing in Christ and entering the new covenant and being regenerated the hardness of heart is removed and one is no longer blind to the glory of God revealed in Christ.

V. 16-18 declares that when the heart turns to Christ the vail is taken away, that is, the hardness of the heart or the blindness toward God is removed, by the Spirit, so that Christians perceive the true goodness of God and all His moral perfections in an experiential life changing way.

This exact same dichotomy between unregenerate Judean and regenerated (even gentile) Christian is expressed by Paul in Romans 2:
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
(Rom 2:14-15)
And again:
Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(Rom 2:26-29)
Paul's argument in 2 Cor 3 is the superiority of the new covenant in Christ compared to the inferiority of the old covenant in Moses, due to the lack of moral and spiritual change wrought in the hearts of men by the latter and the evident proven moral and spiritual change wrought in the hearts of men by the former. The old covenant could not produce righteousness because it's adherents were not regenerated, but were instead hard-hearted and "blinded" to the glory of God. The new covenant however is able to produce righteousness because the new covenant effects actual regeneration in the hearts of men and women. The fact the abridged passage was brought up in a thread discussing the ten commandments suggests perhaps that some might take Paul's words about the superiority of the new covenant over the old covenant to mean that as Christians we are no longer under any moral obligation to obey God's commandments. Nothing could be further from the truth, however. Paul repeatedly explains the old covenant is inferior precisely because it does not produce sincere obedience to God from the heart, whereas the new covenant actually does through regeneration by the Spirit of Christ. The issue is not about the moral commandments of God and our moral obligations to God, but about which covenant is able to secure God-manifestation in human nature. Christ is God manifest in the flesh. We are to be conformed to His image and likeness. Which means we are to manifest God in our flesh as well. That is to say, our lives are to reflect the spiritual, moral, and ethical character and nature of God. He is our Father, we are His children, therefore we are to be made "in His image, after His likeness". We are to be little versions of Him, if you will. This means our lives are to be conformed to His will, which is expressed through His commandments, His Word. This will only occur by being born again, regenerated by His Spirit, so that Christ is FORMED IN US. So that we can say it is not we who live, but Christ Who lives through us.
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Old 11-22-2021, 01:56 AM
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Re: The ten commandments

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I believe the two tablets contained the ten commandments from Ex 20. I have heard this theory before about Ex 34 but I haven't seen anything to indicate those were what was written.

Deuteronomy 4:13 KJV
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Now, as the two tables of stone were written on both sides of each of them, it may be that EITHER there were additional general commandments in addition to the Decalogue, OR that it was just the Decalogue written in Super Giant Enlarged Print for the hard of seeing.
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Old 11-22-2021, 02:06 AM
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Re: The ten commandments

It should also be pointed out that Moses did not put a vail over his face because HE had some kind of problem. Rather, he put the vail on when he spoke to the people of Israel. But when he went to speak with the Lord, he took the vail off:
And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him. And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them. And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai. And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face. But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded. And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
(Exo 34:29-35)
The vail was a barrier not between Moses and God, but between Moses and the people. So Paul's argument has to do with the PEOPLE being blinded when they "hear" from Moses. Not because of any fault with Moses, but because of themselves.

When Paul says "nevertheless, when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away", he is referencing when Moses went in to speak to the Lord "face to face" without any vail. So that Paul is saying the unbelieving Jews are like the Israelites in the wilderness - they only deal with God through Moses behind a vail, hiding the display of God's goodness. But if they will turn to the Lord, as Moses did, and enter the holy place, the vail will be removed and they will encounter God just as Moses did, with no intermeddling vail hiding the glory of God.

As expressed also by Paul here:
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
(Heb 10:14-23)
So, again, the problem wasn't with Moses, but with the people. Just as Paul explains the problem with the old covenant wasn't with the old covenant in and of itself, but with the PEOPLE:

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(Rom 8:3)

The weakness of the law was not in it's own self, but in the flesh of the people exposed to it. The law could not produce righteousness because the PEOPLE were hardened (blinded) in their hearts. The new covenant however overcomes that problem of our flesh via the cross and Spirit regeneration:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:4)
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Last edited by Esaias; 11-22-2021 at 02:31 AM.
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