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  #1291  
Old 08-26-2014, 01:24 PM
MarcBee MarcBee is offline
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Re: Timmy Talk

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Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
If the Bible is accurate concerning natural historical events and items then what makes you think it is inaccurate regarding supernatural events?

If it is reliable telling us earthly things, why should it not be also reliable telling us of heavenly things?
If the Koran is accurate concerning natural historical events and items, then what makes you think it is inaccurate regarding its supernatural events?

If the Book of Moron is accurate concerning natural historical events, then what makes you think it is inaccurate regarding its supernatural events?

We have much better and verifiable evidence that the historical narrative of Book of Mormon is reasonably accurate. We even have physical remnants of the Handcart Migration--people who really, really believed that Joe Smith quoted God and Moroni accurately. But (most) archeologists today say the Exodus (IN THE MANNER REPORTED IN OT) probably did not happen due to evidence that should be there if it happened, but isn't. That is not to say some (even many) other events IN OT are not historically true. But so what? Fundy christians have to maintain it's ALL true, both the supernatural and the natural narrative, whereas I only have to see that any part of it is false. At that point, the "inerrancy" doctrine of the bible (as taught by christians) collapses, at least in the context of REASON. Of course, reason is quite different from the realm of faith--which is itself (to the those using strict reason) discredited considering the Muslims, Mormons, Pagans, Jews, Catholics all have their brand of faith--and all amount to merely different set of (essentially silly) CLAIMS-- none of it successfully standing up against the close scrutiny of reason and/or science.

Probably most of the "natural" events in the bible did have an actual core event that triggered simple human exaggeration. That makes for interesting reading, but stories (especially stories wishing to enforce RELIGIOUS agendas) are NORMALLY embellished, as well as made up ever since religion evolved. That's what the bible is--history embellished (fictionalized) and put at the service of religious agenda.

But how do I know that all of the supernatural parts of Holy Babble are false? Easy--"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

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  #1292  
Old 08-26-2014, 02:28 PM
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Re: Timmy Talk

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Originally Posted by MarcBee View Post
If the Koran is accurate concerning natural historical events and items, then what makes you think it is inaccurate regarding its supernatural events?

If the Book of Moron is accurate concerning natural historical events, then what makes you think it is inaccurate regarding its supernatural events?

We have much better and verifiable evidence that the historical narrative of Book of Mormon is reasonably accurate. We even have physical remnants of the Handcart Migration--people who really, really believed that Joe Smith quoted God and Moroni accurately. But (most) archeologists today say the Exodus (IN THE MANNER REPORTED IN OT) probably did not happen due to evidence that should be there if it happened, but isn't. That is not to say some (even many) other events IN OT are not historically true. But so what? Fundy christians have to maintain it's ALL true, both the supernatural and the natural narrative, whereas I only have to see that any part of it is false. At that point, the "inerrancy" doctrine of the bible (as taught by christians) collapses, at least in the context of REASON. Of course, reason is quite different from the realm of faith--which is itself (to the those using strict reason) discredited considering the Muslims, Mormons, Pagans, Jews, Catholics all have their brand of faith--and all amount to merely different set of (essentially silly) CLAIMS-- none of it successfully standing up against the close scrutiny of reason and/or science.

Probably most of the "natural" events in the bible did have an actual core event that triggered simple human exaggeration. That makes for interesting reading, but stories (especially stories wishing to enforce RELIGIOUS agendas) are NORMALLY embellished, as well as made up ever since religion evolved. That's what the bible is--history embellished (fictionalized) and put at the service of religious agenda.

But how do I know that all of the supernatural parts of Holy Babble are false? Easy--"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

He can answer himself, of course, but I think his position is basically:

If the Bible is accurate in some things, it must therefore be accurate in everything.

If book X (anything except the Bible) is accurate in some things, it can't be accurate in everything.

Makes sense.
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  #1293  
Old 08-30-2014, 12:23 AM
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ctclady11 ctclady11 is offline
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Re: Timmy Talk

[QUOTE=MarcBee;1332446]If the Koran is accurate concerning natural historical events and items, then what makes you think it is inaccurate regarding its supernatural events?

If the Book of Moron is accurate concerning natural historical events, then what makes you think it is inaccurate regarding its supernatural events?

We have much better and verifiable evidence that the historical narrative of Book of Mormon is reasonably accurate. We even have physical remnants of the Handcart Migration--people who really, really believed that Joe Smith quoted God and Moroni accurately. But (most) archeologists today say the Exodus (IN THE MANNER REPORTED IN OT) probably did not happen due to evidence that should be there if it happened, but isn't. That is not to say some (even many) other events IN OT are not historically true. But so what? Fundy christians have to maintain it's ALL true, both the supernatural and the natural narrative, whereas I only have to see that any part of it is false. At that point, the "inerrancy" doctrine of the bible (as taught by christians) collapses, at least in the context of REASON. Of course, reason is quite different from the realm of faith--which is itself (to the those using strict reason) discredited considering the Muslims, Mormons, Pagans, Jews, Catholics all have their brand of faith--and all amount to merely different set of (essentially silly) CLAIMS-- none of it successfully standing up against the close scrutiny of reason and/or science.

Probably most of the "natural" events in the bible did have an actual core event that triggered simple human exaggeration. That makes for interesting reading, but stories (especially stories wishing to enforce RELIGIOUS agendas) are NORMALLY embellished, as well as made up ever since religion evolved. That's what the bible is--history embellished (fictionalized) and put at the service of religious agenda.

But how do I know that all of the supernatural parts of Holy Babble are false? Easy--"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

[/QUOTE

Sounds like you're trying to justify what you and what you DON'T believe in... by questioning those things that only GOD HIMSELF can reveal to you.
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Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me- Psalm 51:10

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ- Phillipians 1:6

What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? - Romans 8:31

1 Corinthians 13:1-8
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  #1294  
Old 08-31-2014, 03:48 PM
MarcBee MarcBee is offline
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Re: Timmy Talk

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Originally Posted by ctclady11 View Post
[d
Sounds like you're trying to justify what you and what you DON'T believe in... by questioning those things that only GOD HIMSELF can reveal to you.

Not exactly "trying" to justify, but have justified, according the normal level of reason (more or less an evidence-based method of thinking) that allows us to survive every day in this world. For example, "How to cross a street safely" requires a kind of scientific method of reason and experience, and you probably use it every day. But when it comes to an imaginative world containing spirit beings that interact with this world, you throw out the normal requirements of evidence, because you want to believe in something you hope is true. Yes, of course I "justify"--and that's what thinking people are supposed to do. They defend truth, or their philosophy, or their world view. But if "God Himself" is what really does the essential work, and somehow "reveals" things apart from what the supposed holy, inerrant Bible says in clear (enough) words, then there's no need to claim the Holey Babble has authority on its own merits. No need to even discuss it. But Fundy Christians claim the WORDS are true--all of it. I once believed like you, and thought "God reveals" truth also. But it was all my imagination and my conversion, fueled by other peoples' similarly informed imaginations.
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  #1295  
Old 09-01-2014, 11:10 PM
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An assertion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
Here is something that nobody should disagree with, but they will:

If you are going to believe supernatural claims, you have no way of knowing which supernatural claims to believe. None. It's not possible. All you can do is choose from among all the claims.

Note that I don't have to claim that there are no true supernatural claims in order for that statement to be true. There very well could be some true claims. But again, it is just that we have no way of knowing which ones are true.

Oh, you disagree? Cool. Fill us in on your secret: how can you tell if a particular supernatural claim is true?
Didn't get much discussion on this. I'd really like to hear from someone that disagrees. (Or agrees, but that's not as much fun. )

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ee#post1331748
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  #1296  
Old 09-02-2014, 04:30 AM
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ctclady11 ctclady11 is offline
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Re: Timmy Talk

[QUOTE=MarcBee;1333611]Not exactly "trying" to justify, but have justified, according the normal level of reason (more or less an evidence-based method of thinking) that allows us to survive every day in this world. For example, "How to cross a street safely" requires a kind of scientific method of reason and experience, and you probably use it every day. But when it comes to an imaginative world containing spirit beings that interact with this world, you throw out the normal requirements of evidence, because you want to believe in something you hope is true. Yes, of course I "justify"--and that's what thinking people are supposed to do. They defend truth, or their philosophy, or their world view. But if "God Himself" is what really does the essential work, and somehow "reveals" things apart from what the supposed holy, inerrant Bible says in clear (enough) words, then there's no need to claim the Holey Babble has authority on its own merits. No need to even discuss it. But Fundy Christians claim the WORDS are true--all of it. I once believed like you, and thought "God reveals" truth also. But it was all my imagination and my conversion, fueled by other peoples' similarly informed imaginations.
[/QUOTE

I don't know what "spirit beings" you're talking about but YES in the spiritual realm there are "principalities" of darkness, and then you have the good guys (the holy angels that WEREN'T CAST OUT OF HEAVEN) There is no in between okay...How do I know for sure? These eyes have seen angels, demons, and JESUS sitting next to my bed conversing with me on morning right before I woke up! (actually just the bottom of his robe and his sandaled feet) I don't think God reveals truth I know he does! (especially when what I've seen with my own eyes as far as those angels and demons lines up with scriptures!) You can think or try to reason all you want to, but you made your choice apparently; and that's what happens when you let go of God. (and your relationship with him)
God Bless
__________________
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me- Psalm 51:10

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ- Phillipians 1:6

What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? - Romans 8:31

1 Corinthians 13:1-8

Last edited by ctclady11; 09-02-2014 at 04:47 AM. Reason: had to reword
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  #1297  
Old 09-02-2014, 06:12 AM
MarcBee MarcBee is offline
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Re: Timmy Talk

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctclady11 View Post
I don't know what "spirit beings" you're talking about but YES in the spiritual realm there are "principalities" of darkness, and then you have the good guys (the holy angels that WEREN'T CAST OUT OF HEAVEN) There is no in between okay...How do I know for sure? These eyes have seen angels, demons, and JESUS sitting next to my bed conversing with me on morning right before I woke up! (actually just the bottom of his robe and his sandaled feet) I don't think God reveals truth I know he does! (especially when what I've seen with my own eyes as far as those angels and demons lines up with scriptures!) You can think or try to reason all you want to, but you made your choice apparently; and that's what happens when you let go of God. (and your relationship with him)
God Bless

Thanks for sharing. IMO, to have seen and heard Jesus and angels with your own physical eyes and ears is fairly good evidence for you to go with and base your life around, even if it's only personal and not provable to anyone else. I would believe also, had I ever experienced anything as (I assume you are claiming) as physically real and sure as your experience.
(Oops, PS. <<right before I woke up.>>) ?

I haven't experienced any of that--and had only the Bible and my "born again" conversion, and the exciting conversions of my brethren to go by, and therefore I believed the whole bible for 22 years. Today, there is no good reason for me to base my life around christians' untestable, if not unbelievable claims, which are no better and no worse than the claims of Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, Moonies, or whatever--they are all based on an invisible spirit world that supposedly continually interacts with our world. If that were true, something or other (the claims about an invisible world, or the gods interacting with this world) would be distinguishable, if not testable. "Distinguishable" meaning to notice something different in the world that doesn't already happen the same way according to normal chance, according to normal nature, normal circumstances, or even according to normal human religious beliefs, of which there are hundreds or thousands. Without such evidence, a modern human does well to side with rationality, and not a wild fairy tale world of gods and spirits. (Supernatural beliefs were probably functional for survival many eons ago, but that's a different topic.) If I am wrong, however, I will be GLAD to see my life used as a sad object lesson by the Almighty Allah or Vishnu or Jesus or (pick your favorite Power God) in order to prove to people in the afterlife (as if they would need any proof then)--about how you should NOT have believed back on earth. Really! Bring it on, gods. My life is yours to use or abuse.

BTW, what did Jesus and the angels say, who were "<<conversing with me>>?

__________________
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Deeply JN Apostolic: 1978-1999.
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Good news! The gospel boils down to, "Love me
or I will destroy you." --A god.


Last edited by MarcBee; 09-02-2014 at 06:19 AM.
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  #1298  
Old 09-02-2014, 07:49 AM
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Re: Timmy Talk

You "saw" them. Just before you woke up. This is how you KNOW.

Can't... breathe....!
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  #1299  
Old 09-04-2014, 02:41 PM
MarcBee MarcBee is offline
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Re: Timmy Talk

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Originally Posted by MarcBee View Post
If I am wrong, however, I will be GLAD to see my life used as a sad object lesson by the Almighty Allah or Vishnu or Jesus or (pick your favorite Power God) in order to prove to people in the afterlife (as if they would need any proof then)--about how you should NOT have believed back on earth. Really! Bring it on, gods. My life is yours to use or abuse.

Timmy, I am disappointed that no Christians scolded me for saying the above. Sure, it sounds audacious, but is merely taking a logical stand based upon my worldview that makes conclusions based upon what is reliably detectable, ie, that there is no Spirit World to access after our deaths. So, I propose that we have some fun and construct a similar list of "If/then" conclusions about really, really believing the Bible based on a plausibly honest reading of the words apart from our culture. For example, Christians should really, really believe the word of Jesus, who said, "Take no thought for tomorrow, what you will eat and drink, because your father cares for you more than he does the flowers of the field and birds whom he feeds every day..." (my ad hoc paraphrase.)
So why would any Christian try (repeat "try") to ever be rich, or for that matter, work any harder than birds work who are essentially daily hunters and/or gatherers?

Is it possible that the experiences we have in life leverage us to "adjust" and spin what the god MUST have really meant, regardless what (clear enough) words say otherwise? Where are the TRUE believers? I do think there exist many Muslim believers who really, really believe what they say, unfortunately. Modern fundamentalist Christians...not as many, nor as deeply (fortunately.)

Your turn!

__________________
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Deeply JN Apostolic: 1978-1999.
Happily agnostic/atheist 2011 to present.

Good news! The gospel boils down to, "Love me
or I will destroy you." --A god.


Last edited by MarcBee; 09-04-2014 at 02:47 PM.
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  #1300  
Old 09-04-2014, 05:04 PM
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Re: Timmy Talk

Yes, and why would they ever have a 401K or retirement plans? Or insurance?

I agree that there are very few Christians who believe it all literally. Some who believe James literally have followed its instructions (the elders will anoint with oil and pray) and kept the faith until their child died. Er, until their child received their healing in heaven.

Sad.
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