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Old 04-27-2020, 11:19 AM
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For those who think Jesus is not a man any longer.

I spoke with Nicodemus about this issue in a thread on the fellowship section, where I really did not want to debate this issue there. But he kindly ceased, but I would like to discuss it here.

Here is the last dialogue we had there:

I asked why oneness cannot accept the thought that Jesus still exists as a man in heaven at this point.And here was his answer:

Quote:
Because the physical man had a purpose and the purpose was completed!
What has that got to do with thinking that the existence of a man now as Son of God makes one depart from oneness when you believe that oneness included the picture of Jesus as a man at the same time He was God when there was what you believe a purpose for it? Just because you think there is no man now since his purpose was done, does not mean that IT IS NOT ONENESS to believe there is a purpose now and that the man still exists.

Oneness is about the STATE and NATURE of Jesus in relation to humanity and deity.

Since you believe that Jesus as a man was also God at the same time, and He was so before the cross, and you say that that correctly represents ONENESS, then the same picture with both Jesus as man and God today is just as oneness. Oneness is not about PURPOSE. PURPOSE is another topic. Oneness is about an explanation of what is going on with JESUS as a man and Deity. Is Jesus the same GOD that fills the universe while at the same time Jesus was a man? YES! That is oneness! And that holds true whether the man is in heaven NOW or was on earth THEN.

Oneness is about the nature of Jesus being GOD AND MAN at the same time. It matters not WHEN. It is just as much oneness to say that Jesus is STILL God and Man at the same time as much as it was to say He was so before the cross.

Quote:
The Bible says,
John 19:30 KJVS
[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Finished- meaning he brought to a close.
Yes that was stated by Jesus on the cross, but Jesus did not say WHAT was finished, though. I claim that the need for all that would fulfil the old covenant and the question of sin was FINISHED. The WORK was finished. That work is focused on in Hebrews 10 as being FINISHED which caused the SON TO SIT DOWN IN HEAVEN. It was AFTER Jesus ascended into HEAVEN that He was told to SIT DOWN.

Do you not believe that Psalm 110:1 was fulfilled AFTER Jesus ascended into heaven? THAT is the MAIN ISSUE of this entire subject.

Quote:
Matthew 28:18 KJVS
[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
A MAN GIVEN ALL POWER. Amen! God is NOT GIVEN power. God HAS power. So, Jesus was speaking as a MAN while he was also God at the same time.

So why would He as a MAN be "given" all power only to no longer exist as a man any more? Kind of a waste of time.

Quote:
Ive said this with others, the physical body of Jesus was NOT God.
I agree!

Quote:
The SPIRIT that indwelled that sacrifice was God. The Physical man is not another deity, nor is it the from of God in the spirit realm.
I am not saying the physical man is deity or is from the Spirit realm. The PHYSICAL MAN did not come into existence until the incarnation. And yet HE ascended into heaven and was told to sit down while HIS DEITY would put his enemies beneath his feet.

So, once again, do you believe that Psalm 110:1 was fulfilled AFTER the ascension, and who do you believe the LORD is who spoke to David's Lord in that post-ascension dialogue?

The issue is that ONENESS is the understanding that Jesus is both God and Man at the same time. He's not a second person of a trinity with a third person involved.

The situation of Jesus being on earth as a man and is thought to be God at the same time, and was eternally God while he was not eternally man, constitutes ONENESS.

If that same situation exists NOW, except that the LOCATION of JESUS as a MAN is now in heaven as opposed to earth, while at the same time is the one eternal God who is omnipresent, then THAT IS STILL ONENESS.

How can it no longer be ONENESS if only the LOCATION of the MAN who is Jesus has changed, while Jesus is also God? How does LOCATION of the man make a difference in ONENESS when it's the same scenario of Jesus as both man and God?

If one wants to believe Jesus is no longer MAN as well as God (which is wrong), that is NO MORE ONENESS than believing He is still existing as both Man and God.
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Old 04-27-2020, 11:39 AM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

Very important truth. Jesus is STILL a man while being the God of the universe.
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Old 04-27-2020, 12:20 PM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Very important truth. Jesus is STILL a man while being the God of the universe.
Amen and amen! It fulfils the will of God for A MAN to be given dominion over the earth and to subdue it. Satan hated that idea and still hates it. That's why he refused to call Jesus SON OF MAN.
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Old 04-27-2020, 10:33 PM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post


I am not saying the physical man is deity or is from the Spirit realm. The PHYSICAL MAN did not come into existence until the incarnation.
I think this type of terminology is imprecise and may be problematic. Jesus said He came down from heaven. Now, we know this does not mean a divine person OTHER than the One God came down from heaven, nor does it even mean God Himself came DOWN from heaven (since God is omnipresent how does He "come or go" anywhere?). BUT it does mean SOMETHING otherwise Jesus wouldn't have said it.

Jesus coming down from heaven, or "proceeding from the Father", means this Man has a direct Divine origin. He was conceived in the womb of Mary by a creative miracle of God. In that sense, He came forth from the Father. Moreover, He was SENT by God, that is, the Man has a Divine Purpose and mission. In these senses I can certainly understand that Jesus Christ, the Man, "is from the Spirit realm".

As for the phrase "the physical man is deity" I think He is. Thomas saw a man, touched Him, and proclaimed "My Lord AND MY GOD." The Man is physical (of course) and the Man is God. He is God manifested in flesh, He is the Word of Life made flesh. So to say "the physical man is NOT God" doesn't actually make sense to me.

Now, to say His actual skin, muscle, bone, etc are not made of Divine Essence or something, of course that is true. He was made of a woman, son of David according to the flesh. His physical human nature and all its characteristics are not composed out of Divine nature. His humanity is our humanity, dust of the earth (although resurrected, and transformed, immortal). But I'm not sure ANYBODY believes otherwise, except certain gnostics, Mennonites, and Divine Flesh pentecostals.

I think we need to be as specific as possible in these kinds of discussions to avoid misunderstandings.
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Old 04-28-2020, 08:46 AM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I think this type of terminology is imprecise and may be problematic. Jesus said He came down from heaven. Now, we know this does not mean a divine person OTHER than the One God came down from heaven, nor does it even mean God Himself came DOWN from heaven (since God is omnipresent how does He "come or go" anywhere?). BUT it does mean SOMETHING otherwise Jesus wouldn't have said it.

Jesus coming down from heaven, or "proceeding from the Father", means this Man has a direct Divine origin. He was conceived in the womb of Mary by a creative miracle of God. In that sense, He came forth from the Father. Moreover, He was SENT by God, that is, the Man has a Divine Purpose and mission. In these senses I can certainly understand that Jesus Christ, the Man, "is from the Spirit realm".

As for the phrase "the physical man is deity" I think He is. Thomas saw a man, touched Him, and proclaimed "My Lord AND MY GOD." The Man is physical (of course) and the Man is God. He is God manifested in flesh, He is the Word of Life made flesh. So to say "the physical man is NOT God" doesn't actually make sense to me.

Now, to say His actual skin, muscle, bone, etc are not made of Divine Essence or something, of course that is true. He was made of a woman, son of David according to the flesh. His physical human nature and all its characteristics are not composed out of Divine nature. His humanity is our humanity, dust of the earth (although resurrected, and transformed, immortal). But I'm not sure ANYBODY believes otherwise, except certain gnostics, Mennonites, and Divine Flesh pentecostals.

I think we need to be as specific as possible in these kinds of discussions to avoid misunderstandings.
I agree with all that you said, seeing that it is a case of termonology.

When I say the physical man is not God I mean humanity is all that this body and soul is and was. I believe Jesus was literal when he told the rich young rule to not call him good because no man is good, only God. Thomas touched the body, but the body was purely human and not deity since the deity is eternal and the body was not.

I think this also touches on an issue I have been concerned with for many oneness people for years, even decades. They distance Jesus' humanity from us and do not see that He relied on the direction and power of the Father as much as we need to. Many oneness people deny that. Jesus as a man genuinely had to learn and grow in wisdom, and learn obedience. He did precisely the things we can and should do when dealing with satan, and did not treat the devil as only God could handle him, and us be unable to in that same manner.

Thomas knew God was in that human being, just as He is now in us. But the difference between us and Jesus is that his very person was God, and I do use that term person because the Bible did, while obviously standing o the greek meaning of the term and not what person have been evolved into apart form that.
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Old 04-28-2020, 03:50 PM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I agree with all that you said, seeing that it is a case of termonology.

When I say the physical man is not God I mean humanity is all that this body and soul is and was. I believe Jesus was literal when he told the rich young rule to not call him good because no man is good, only God. Thomas touched the body, but the body was purely human and not deity since the deity is eternal and the body was not.

I think this also touches on an issue I have been concerned with for many oneness people for years, even decades. They distance Jesus' humanity from us and do not see that He relied on the direction and power of the Father as much as we need to. Many oneness people deny that. Jesus as a man genuinely had to learn and grow in wisdom, and learn obedience. He did precisely the things we can and should do when dealing with satan, and did not treat the devil as only God could handle him, and us be unable to in that same manner.

Thomas knew God was in that human being, just as He is now in us. But the difference between us and Jesus is that his very person was God, and I do use that term person because the Bible did, while obviously standing o the greek meaning of the term and not what person have been evolved into apart form that.
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Old 04-30-2020, 11:51 AM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

TJJJ, Nicodemus68?

Care to discuss this in depth?
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Old 05-01-2020, 09:46 AM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

I guess it's hard to challenge the Word of God, itself, when it's presented.

The fact is that ONENESS is the understanding that God is ONE even though He is manifest in flesh at the same time that He the heavens cannot contain HIm as per his deity. And whether that is between the incarnation and the ascension, or NOW, A manifestation in flesh by the one God of the universe is the basic and core understanding of ONENESS.

It matters not if someone things the MAN is not existing any more in Heaven. Oneness is not about WHEN He is manifest in flesh or not. It is about the fact that HE MANFESTES IN FLESH at the same time He remains omnipresent Deity!

Wherever this idea came from that Jesus is not a man any more is simply absurd. And it shows lack of understanding Oneness correctly. Just look at lack of dialogue over it.
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Old 05-01-2020, 12:10 PM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I guess it's hard to challenge the Word of God, itself, when it's presented.

The fact is that ONENESS is the understanding that God is ONE even though He is manifest in flesh at the same time that He the heavens cannot contain HIm as per his deity. And whether that is between the incarnation and the ascension, or NOW, A manifestation in flesh by the one God of the universe is the basic and core understanding of ONENESS.

It matters not if someone things the MAN is not existing any more in Heaven. Oneness is not about WHEN He is manifest in flesh or not. It is about the fact that HE MANFESTES IN FLESH at the same time He remains omnipresent Deity!

Wherever this idea came from that Jesus is not a man any more is simply absurd. And it shows lack of understanding Oneness correctly. Just look at lack of dialogue over it.
Very true!

Studying the wording of the Apostles shows how clearly they see God in Christ.

I never noticed this before, but it shows how naturally Peter’s understanding of who Jesus was in 2 Peter 1:2-4. He talks about God and of Jesus Christ.

Initially, it could appear to refer to two separate entities except that he uses singular pronouns - He and His.

2Peter 1:2 “Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.”
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Old 05-04-2020, 11:58 AM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

TJJJ started a thread at the debate section and feels Jesus is no longer man, let alone is a MAN in Heaven, and won't respond to my points there.

He said the following, to which I will insert my responses here:

Quote:
Many of those people who believe that Jesus the man is up in heaven by Jesus God are really confused, but there is a reason for their confusion.

1- Ignorance - They have no real understanding of what the oneness is all about.
This is completely absurd from the start, because TJJJ believes that ONENESS was the case with Jesus on earth as a man while remaining Jesus as God that fills the universe. Was that not oneness? Why is it not oneness for the SAME SITUATION to occur in heaven instead of the earth? ONENESS has nothing to do with WHERE this situation occurs, as though it is oneness if it is the case in earth but not oneness if that came case exists in heaven. Oneness has to do with what the answer is to explain the question of what is happening when Jesus is a MAN that is distinct from GOD as in the case of a man in earth who prayed to the Father. The same situation is in heaven and oneness explains that in the same way that it explains the situation in earth.

So, what we have here is truly a misunderstanding of what oneness is. Oneness is what explains the case of Jesus being a man while remaining the God that the universe cannot contain at the same time. When Jesus was on earth, He was a man between the incarnation and the ascension. He is one person although there is the SON and FATHER in existence. So, if that was ONENESS in THAT situation, why is it not oneness for the same MAN to be in heaven while HIs person is also God at the same time? I think someone does not know what Oneness is, and it's not whom TJJJ thinks it is.

Also, he made the statement that those who believe that "Jesus the man is up in heaven by Jesus God" are confused. Why does he use the word "BY". You cannot get BY or BESIDE God. God HAS NO SIDE to get BY or BESIDE becuase God is omnipresent and the universe cannot contain HIm. SO, there is no SIDE to God to Be BESIDE.

Quote:
They have a semi-trinitarian view of the Godhead that is composed of God the Father and Jesus God the son.
Nonsense. This shows a total misunderstanding of oneness. If Jesus was on earth as a man, AS TJJJ AGREES, and yet at the same time He was GOD, was that GOD THE SON and GOD THE FATHER? No. It was the SON OF GOD and GOD THE FATHER. How is that different about that SON being in Heaven at the same time He is GOD THE FATHER? How is that less than oneness if the same situation was with the SON ON EARTH?

[quote] They profess that the Holy Ghost is God the Father but hesitate to call the Holy Ghost Jesus as that would mean that Jesus had come on the day of Pentecost. For this I say that they are in ignorance.[/quopte]

I do not hesitate to call the Holy Ghost JESUS. So, who here that believes the SON is in heaven right now as a man thinks that Jesus is not the Holy Ghost?

This is not only a misunderstanding of ONENESS on TJJJ's behalf, but a misrepresentation of those who believe the MAN is in heaven right now.

Quote:
The oneness is the combination of the Spirit and flesh becoming one, not God the Father and God the son becoming one.
AGreed. Who among us said anything different than that?!!

Quote:
Somehow they have missed a vital point in their theology and are quasi- trinitarians.
Somehow you got something in your head about us that IS NOT TRUE!

Quote:
When it speaks of the son it deals with the humanity, when it deals with the father it deals with the spirit. The name of the Body was Jesus because it took on the name of the Spirit that inhabited it. That Spirit is the Father.
There was more than a body that was human. There was the WILL that was human, because Jesus said "Not my will but thine be done," when praying to the Father. Are you thinking the Son was a tupperware container and the body alone was human? Jesus distinguished his human will form the divine will in that prayer.

Quote:
Jesus, the flesh, referred to this when he said in John 14 that it was not him, the flesh, that did the works but the Father, the Spirit, that dwelt within him.
I agree the Spirit was in Him known as the Father, the same Spirirt that is called the Holy Ghost.

Quote:
I am amazed when I deal with so called oneness people that never grasped this truth.
I am amazed you are accusing us something that WE DO NOT BELIEVE.

Quote:
Dealing with a lot of Mormons I see the doctrine of the two gods a lot. They believe in God the father and Jesus the son also. This is also alive and well in the JW's.

It is heresy of course but it seems to be an enduring heresy that goes along with other heresies, one begets the other.

2- The other reason that they must hold on to the doctrine of the flesh of Jesus floating around in heaven
Who said the flesh was floating around in heaven? We talked about this before and your drive-by-shooting of words never caused you to stop let and let us explain to you what we believe. I SAID THAT I DO NOT KNOW IF THE PHYSICAL BODY IS IN HEAVEN, but since He was able to disappear on earth and be in a non-[physical state at will, then that may likely be the case in Heaven, too. But it may be a p[hysiocla body there, as well. Angels can go there and back, and they can appear and disappear, too. Are they physically floating in heaven or not? I say whatever they do is what the HUMAN SON does.

Quote:

is that they hold onto a physical futuristic return of that physical body back to this earth to reign for a thousand years.
I believe IN NO such future 1000 years, either. But I believe Jesus will physically lead us back to earth to rule forever on earth as He gave Adam dominion on the earth to begin with.

Quote:
Then somewhere in there or after that physical Jesus gives back the kingdom to God the Father. I guess.
You would not know since you never stopped to actually ask or discuss it. You're too busy accusing us of things we never believed./

Quote:

If they ever got hold of Truth then they would have to give up on the physical body of Jesus floating out there by some planet somewhere. This of course will do away with their little doctrine of a physical rapture. Again, heresy begets heresy.
Heresy begets heresy, which makes me wonder what he will believe NEXT after thinking there is NO MAN in heaven right now.

Will respond to more soon.

I wrote an entire book on the issue called:

MOTHERHOOD - DESTROYING SATAN BY HUMANITY

Check it out at AMAZON in E-Book and paperback
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Last edited by mfblume; 05-04-2020 at 01:47 PM.
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