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Old 09-05-2021, 09:57 AM
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Can a spirit of depression disguise itself....

As a spirit of "travail"?


What is the difference between a spirit travail in prayer and entertaining a spirit of weeping depression? Is there such a thing that can masquerade as something it is not? Is a spirit of travail even Biblically applicable to individual people or is it referenced only in reference to Zion travailing?
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Old 09-05-2021, 02:29 PM
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Re: Can a spirit of depression disguise itself....

I believe you can turn a spirit of depression into travail/intercessory prayer.
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Old 09-05-2021, 02:59 PM
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Re: Can a spirit of depression disguise itself....

Travail is a spirit now?
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Old 09-05-2021, 03:57 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Can a spirit of depression disguise itself....

As far as I can tell, most depressions are the result of sadness because of personal misfortune: bad things that happened to you and you can't find comfort for, or no personal purpose in life, etc... It is, in most cases, very inward.

Travailing, as in intercession, it is outward. It is about other people, not yourself.
Intercession can definitely sadden your spirit for a while:
Daniel 10:1-3 (NKJV) 1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a message was revealed to Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar. The message was true, but the appointed time was long; and he understood the message, and had understanding of the vision. 2 In those days I, Daniel, was mourning three full weeks. 3 I ate no pleasant food, no meat or wine came into my mouth, nor did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.
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Old 09-06-2021, 01:26 AM
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Re: Can a spirit of depression disguise itself....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jediwill83 View Post
As a spirit of "travail"?


What is the difference between a spirit travail in prayer and entertaining a spirit of weeping depression? Is there such a thing that can masquerade as something it is not? Is a spirit of travail even Biblically applicable to individual people or is it referenced only in reference to Zion travailing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by diakonos View Post
Travail is a spirit now?
While there isn't a Biblical reference one can turn to, to find the phrase "spirit of depression" or "spirit of travail" (good call out, Diakonos!), I think we all have been around Pentecost long enough to know what our brother is asking.

Many people, often women, but men as well, speak of travailing when they pray, or travailing in intercession, and etc. The lingo is quite common, if Biblically non-existent.

A reference that is often used is found in Galatians 4:19,

Quote:
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you
It is believed that Paul, distressed by the goings-on among the churches he founded in Galatia, hit his knees in prayer and prayed deep, travailing tears of intercession for the saints who had fallen prey to the Judaizers and their ἕτερον εὐαγγέλιον (heteron euangelion - different/other gospel; Galatians 1:6).

And so, when they pray, and begin to cry and groan and experience sorrow and pain and speak in unknown tongues, they come to believe that they, too, like Paul, are travailing, and are therefore, as they saying goes, "birthing things in the Spirit".

In Galatians 4:19, the Greek word for travail is ὠδίνω, or odino, and it means to travail in birth pangs, or feel a need to deliver something by undergoing a "birthing-type" process.

https://biblehub.com/greek/5605.htm

The same Greek word is used only in Galatians 4:19, then again in Galatians 4:27, and Revelation 12:2. It comes from the Greek word ὠδίν, or odin, which refers to the birth pang itself, or to any other severe pain or intense suffering one might feel.

https://biblehub.com/greek/5604.htm

The word is used famously by the Lord Jesus in His Olivet Discourse regarding the "beginning of birth pangs" (See Matthew 24:8 and Mark 13:8).

There are only two other places in the NT where the word is used:

1.) Acts 2:24, which refers to the "pains of death" from which the Father loosed Messiah upon raising Him from the dead.

And,

2.) 1 Thessalonians 5:3, in which Paul describes the plight of those who say "peace and safety", only to find themselves in sudden destruction, like a woman experiencing the sudden onslaught of labor pains.

With this in mind, one clearly sees both the literal and figurative meaning behind the idea.

The question is, whenever someone prays and begins to cry and groan and experience sorrow and pain and speak in unknown tongues, just what is happening?

Are they, like, Paul, travailing until Christ be formed in someone else?

Well, to begin to answer, I find a different, more pressing question needs to be asked first, namely:

Just what did Paul mean in Galatians 4:19?

- Does Paul in Galatians 4:19 anywhere mention being in prayer?
- Does Paul in Galatians 4:19 anywhere mention interceding in the Spirit?
- Does Paul in Galatians 4:19 anywhere mention anything even remotely close to what modern Pentecostals describe when they allege to be in a so-called spirit of travail?

Note the context:

Galatians 4:11-21,

Quote:
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.
13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.
18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.
19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Just what was Paul's labor pain? He was mad. He was upset that after all his hard evangelistic work in Galatia to found the churches there, including being stoned outside of Lystra (Acts 14:19 and 2 Timothy 3:11), that the very people who once would have plucked out their eyes for him, were now abandoning the Apostolic message of grace and truth found, not in the law of circumcision, but in the atoning death of Jesus of Nazareth.

He wanted to go and visit them, and soften his tone, and have a change of heart, but his doubts about them were, at the time of his writing to them, insurmountable.

So, just what was Paul suffering? In his doubts, his anger, his frustration, he had come to believe that all the hard work, including the persecutions he suffered at the first, would have to be endured all over again, if he was to win the Galatians anew, to Christ.

As far as Paul was concerned, the Galatians were lost, fallen from grace, as he put it. They were in need of re-evangelization. This troubled Paul greatly, causing him great consternation.

We can therefore surmise that part of what Paul was suffering and needing to be delivered from, was his own emotional state. That, unless and until the Galatians repented and renewed their faith in Christ and came again to believe in the Gospel that Paul had preached to them, he would have to consider them anathema, and that caused him untold sorrow.

So, that's what Paul meant when he wrote of travailing. He wasn't talking about intercessory prayer, or birthing things in the Spirit, or any of these other ridiculous Pentecostalisms with which we all are familiar.

This being the case, what then is happening with Brother or Sister _________ when they begin to cry and groan and experience sorrow and pain and speak with unknown tongues when they pray?

How about this:

Romans 8:22-27,

Quote:
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Are these people travailing? Yes. But for what?

No one knows, not even the one who is doing it:

1 Corinthians 14:2,

Quote:
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
But the Spirit knows. The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly (Proverbs 20:27).

It is just as likely, and perhaps, Scripturally speaking, even more likely, that when a person finds themselves praying in the way Jediwill is asking about, that the person travailing is the person who needs deliverance. They have an infirmity. As part of creation, they, too, suffer the corruption that the rest of creation experiences, and they, too, who are the firstfruits of the Spirit, are waiting for the adoption, that is to say, the redemption of their bodies, and so, groan and travail along with everyone else, until that time comes.

Just as it is the travailing pregnant woman who needs to be delivered from the baby inside of her, so, too, does the travailing saint need to be delivered from the infirmity that exists inside of them.

And yes, to finally answer the original question, that travail-causing infirmity might be depression, or other mental health disorders, from which, Brother or Sister ________ needs deliverance.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 09-06-2021 at 01:33 AM.
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  #6  
Old 09-06-2021, 06:00 AM
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jediwill83 jediwill83 is offline
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Re: Can a spirit of depression disguise itself....

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
While there isn't a Biblical reference one can turn to, to find the phrase "spirit of depression" or "spirit of travail" (good call out, Diakonos!), I think we all have been around Pentecost long enough to know what our brother is asking.

Many people, often women, but men as well, speak of travailing when they pray, or travailing in intercession, and etc. The lingo is quite common, if Biblically non-existent.

A reference that is often used is found in Galatians 4:19,



It is believed that Paul, distressed by the goings-on among the churches he founded in Galatia, hit his knees in prayer and prayed deep, travailing tears of intercession for the saints who had fallen prey to the Judaizers and their ἕτερον εὐαγγέλιον (heteron euangelion - different/other gospel; Galatians 1:6).

And so, when they pray, and begin to cry and groan and experience sorrow and pain and speak in unknown tongues, they come to believe that they, too, like Paul, are travailing, and are therefore, as they saying goes, "birthing things in the Spirit".

In Galatians 4:19, the Greek word for travail is ὠδίνω, or odino, and it means to travail in birth pangs, or feel a need to deliver something by undergoing a "birthing-type" process.

https://biblehub.com/greek/5605.htm

The same Greek word is used only in Galatians 4:19, then again in Galatians 4:27, and Revelation 12:2. It comes from the Greek word ὠδίν, or odin, which refers to the birth pang itself, or to any other severe pain or intense suffering one might feel.

https://biblehub.com/greek/5604.htm

The word is used famously by the Lord Jesus in His Olivet Discourse regarding the "beginning of birth pangs" (See Matthew 24:8 and Mark 13:8).

There are only two other places in the NT where the word is used:

1.) Acts 2:24, which refers to the "pains of death" from which the Father loosed Messiah upon raising Him from the dead.

And,

2.) 1 Thessalonians 5:3, in which Paul describes the plight of those who say "peace and safety", only to find themselves in sudden destruction, like a woman experiencing the sudden onslaught of labor pains.

With this in mind, one clearly sees both the literal and figurative meaning behind the idea.

The question is, whenever someone prays and begins to cry and groan and experience sorrow and pain and speak in unknown tongues, just what is happening?

Are they, like, Paul, travailing until Christ be formed in someone else?

Well, to begin to answer, I find a different, more pressing question needs to be asked first, namely:

Just what did Paul mean in Galatians 4:19?

- Does Paul in Galatians 4:19 anywhere mention being in prayer?
- Does Paul in Galatians 4:19 anywhere mention interceding in the Spirit?
- Does Paul in Galatians 4:19 anywhere mention anything even remotely close to what modern Pentecostals describe when they allege to be in a so-called spirit of travail?

Note the context:

Galatians 4:11-21,



Just what was Paul's labor pain? He was mad. He was upset that after all his hard evangelistic work in Galatia to found the churches there, including being stoned outside of Lystra (Acts 14:19 and 2 Timothy 3:11), that the very people who once would have plucked out their eyes for him, were now abandoning the Apostolic message of grace and truth found, not in the law of circumcision, but in the atoning death of Jesus of Nazareth.

He wanted to go and visit them, and soften his tone, and have a change of heart, but his doubts about them were, at the time of his writing to them, insurmountable.

So, just what was Paul suffering? In his doubts, his anger, his frustration, he had come to believe that all the hard work, including the persecutions he suffered at the first, would have to be endured all over again, if he was to win the Galatians anew, to Christ.

As far as Paul was concerned, the Galatians were lost, fallen from grace, as he put it. They were in need of re-evangelization. This troubled Paul greatly, causing him great consternation.

We can therefore surmise that part of what Paul was suffering and needing to be delivered from, was his own emotional state. That, unless and until the Galatians repented and renewed their faith in Christ and came again to believe in the Gospel that Paul had preached to them, he would have to consider them anathema, and that caused him untold sorrow.

So, that's what Paul meant when he wrote of travailing. He wasn't talking about intercessory prayer, or birthing things in the Spirit, or any of these other ridiculous Pentecostalisms with which we all are familiar.

This being the case, what then is happening with Brother or Sister _________ when they begin to cry and groan and experience sorrow and pain and speak with unknown tongues when they pray?

How about this:

Romans 8:22-27,



Are these people travailing? Yes. But for what?

No one knows, not even the one who is doing it:

1 Corinthians 14:2,



But the Spirit knows. The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly (Proverbs 20:27).

It is just as likely, and perhaps, Scripturally speaking, even more likely, that when a person finds themselves praying in the way Jediwill is asking about, that the person travailing is the person who needs deliverance. They have an infirmity. As part of creation, they, too, suffer the corruption that the rest of creation experiences, and they, too, who are the firstfruits of the Spirit, are waiting for the adoption, that is to say, the redemption of their bodies, and so, groan and travail along with everyone else, until that time comes.

Just as it is the travailing pregnant woman who needs to be delivered from the baby inside of her, so, too, does the travailing saint need to be delivered from the infirmity that exists inside of them.

And yes, to finally answer the original question, that travail-causing infirmity might be depression, or other mental health disorders, from which, Brother or Sister ________ needs deliverance.



Holy wow thats good stuff.
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Old 09-06-2021, 07:05 AM
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Re: Can a spirit of depression disguise itself....

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
So, that's what Paul meant when he wrote of travailing. He wasn't talking about intercessory prayer, or birthing things in the Spirit, or any of these other ridiculous Pentecostalisms with which we all are familiar.
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Old 09-06-2021, 07:29 AM
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jediwill83 jediwill83 is offline
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Re: Can a spirit of depression disguise itself....

Look, Im all for heavy intercession...but lets say that you entertain something that for our discussion we will call travail. Supposed to be a deep moving of the Spirit right? But what happens when the person gets up from that continually but seems to all of a sudden be lacking in the Fruit of the Spirit? It worries me that someone can have such a negative shift after spending so much time in a deep spiritual activity. If said person has greatly struggled with depression and the like in the past...and they have been told that this activity is from God and they should give themselves over to it.. it'd be the perfect set up for an attack of the enemy.


Look folks.....Ive done my share of burying my face in the carpet groaning making snot bubbles ok?


Im not dismissing this out of hand.


Im just noticing something that seems off.


Why the sudden change in mood and attitude?


Where'd the fruit go?


All valid questions Im asking.


So I felt this little hint in direction drop in my spirit yesterday that these were the questions I need to be asking...so Im asking.


Just like everyone that speaks in tongues isnt always being motivated by the Spirit of God...csn there be a dark perversion of intercession that is actually fooling us into allowing depression to manifest?


Keep in mind that the person in question had never experienced this before but was told by another lady that its what it was...so she just kinda took that as gospel and threw herself into it.


Ive watched as people that hated my guts hit an altar, get filled with the HolyGhost and get up and the first thing they did when they saw me standing there is bear hug me weeping apologizing...this almost feels like we fight more after prayer.


Just being real here yall...just concerned.


Just feels like we are under attack.
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Old 09-06-2021, 08:09 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Can a spirit of depression disguise itself....

Well, if we are just trying to have a reflexion on the use of the term, yes, a word study will definitely show its biblical use, but what I was understanding from the original text is not the argument of the use of the word, but the justification to be depressed by saying "I'm travailing in the Spirit".

Answering that question, no the word use, but the depression part, I believe depression is purely inward, sadness because of intercession is more outward, like the sadness a mother feels for their kids when they are suffering. That sadness could take some time, but I believe there is a point when you get into "acceptance" mode and you get over it, and keep praying but not with the same intensity. Depression, on the other hand, it just stays there for a while, because it becomes a mode of life, a self-pity attitude that becomes part of your character.

Last edited by coksiw; 09-06-2021 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 09-06-2021, 08:50 AM
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Re: Can a spirit of depression disguise itself....

Quote:
Originally Posted by diakonos View Post
Travail is a spirit now?

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