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  #131  
Old 04-11-2021, 09:34 PM
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Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
The heart.
Nonsense.

Nowhere in any verse of the New Covenant Scriptures is anyone ever enjoined to submit to the Gospel, only believe and receive by obeying.

No one can successfully obey the Gospel without submitting themselves to the parameters and requirements of the Good News.

You are, therefore, drawing unnecessary distinctions between concepts that the Apostles and Prophets of Christ never did.
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  #132  
Old 04-11-2021, 09:41 PM
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Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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If that is true, then not every bit of what God consists of is in Jesus, bodily, per Col 2:9? Rather, only a particular portion of God?
You are misunderstanding Colossians 2:9.

No, not every bit of what God consists of is in Jesus, bodily, in terms of quantity.

Rather, everything that makes God, God, per His Deity (nature and attributes), was in Jesus bodily, per Colossians 2:9, which speaks to quality.

Here is how you can know the difference.

The fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily in Christ Jesus. Christ, the hope of glory, is in the Spirit-filled believer. The fulness of the Godhead is in Christ Jesus, and Christ Jesus is in us, and so, the fulness of the Godhead is in us, as the Lord's Body.

Well, if I have that fulness, and it speaks to quantity, then I'm the only one in whom Christ Jesus dwells. But if you have it, and I have it, and all Spirit-filled believers everywhere have it, then it speaks to quality, not quantity.

In the Gospel of John, John the Baptist explained that the Spirit of God was given to Jesus without measure. Jesus explained to His disciples that the Father was IN Him. God is a Spirit.

So, the Spirit of God the Father was given to Jesus without measure, and was in Him, so, even prior to His death, burial, resurrection, the fulness of the Godhead was in Christ Jesus, bodily.

It's a pre and post ascension truth.
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  #133  
Old 04-12-2021, 06:22 AM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Nonsense.

Nowhere in any verse of the New Covenant Scriptures is anyone ever enjoined to submit to the Gospel, only believe and receive by obeying.

No one can successfully obey the Gospel without submitting themselves to the parameters and requirements of the Good News.

You are, therefore, drawing unnecessary distinctions between concepts that the Apostles and Prophets of Christ never did.
OK.
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  #134  
Old 04-12-2021, 06:23 AM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
You just can't hear yourself. You can't get it out of your head that Trinitarians really mean Gods when they say persons, even though that's not the case. Calling them "separate" only refers to the Persons, or from the Greek, Hypostases, and from the Latin, Personas.



Finally, some accuracy. Emphasis on the word "some", however.
So are those “persons” individual,and god like?
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  #135  
Old 04-12-2021, 07:17 AM
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Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
You are misunderstanding Colossians 2:9.

No, not every bit of what God consists of is in Jesus, bodily, in terms of quantity.

Rather, everything that makes God, God, per His Deity (nature and attributes), was in Jesus bodily, per Colossians 2:9, which speaks to quality.

Here is how you can know the difference.

The fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily in Christ Jesus. Christ, the hope of glory, is in the Spirit-filled believer. The fulness of the Godhead is in Christ Jesus, and Christ Jesus is in us, and so, the fulness of the Godhead is in us, as the Lord's Body.

Well, if I have that fulness, and it speaks to quantity, then I'm the only one in whom Christ Jesus dwells. But if you have it, and I have it, and all Spirit-filled believers everywhere have it, then it speaks to quality, not quantity.

In the Gospel of John, John the Baptist explained that the Spirit of God was given to Jesus without measure. Jesus explained to His disciples that the Father was IN Him. God is a Spirit.

So, the Spirit of God the Father was given to Jesus without measure, and was in Him, so, even prior to His death, burial, resurrection, the fulness of the Godhead was in Christ Jesus, bodily.

It's a pre and post ascension truth.
Thanks. However, we do not have the fullness of the Godhead in us. it says 'fullness of God" regarding us. Jesus specifically has ALL the fulness of the Godhead, bodily. This does not say "all the fullness of the attributes of God". We read the latter into it for some reason. Also, Jesus had the Spirit without measure while on earth, which implies we have it with measure.
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  #136  
Old 04-12-2021, 10:16 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
No pass here. There is no complication in making certain one accurately reflects the language and ideas one uses when setting forth the basic principles of the doctrine.

There is nothing about making certain one doesn't use the word Gods in the place of Persons that is difficult or challenging to articulate. Whatever conclusions one reaches, one may simply state something to the effect of, "The way I understand the Trinity doctrine, it looks to me like there are three Gods".

That is one thing. It is another to claim, "Trinitarians believe in three Gods".

That is demonstrably false. And anyone who cares about honesty, integrity, accuracy, and good Christian moral ethics, would make certain to not make untrue claims.

Trinitarians routinely used to say that Oneness are "Jesus Only", implying Oneness disavow the Father and the Holy Spirit. Oneness folks, particularly Dr. Bernard, have gone to great lengths to show the error of that statement and implication, and have largely succeeded in striking the "Jesus Only" language and its implications from the discussion.

How about Oneness return the favor and learn to strike the "three Gods" language from the discussion.

Do you want dialogue? An open door to witness? A chance to share what you believe to be true about the Godhead? Well, you aren't ever going to get the chance going into the discussion misrepresenting the opposing view.

It's why Dr. Bernard won that debate. The man took the hardline, low road approach and Dr. Bernard took the diplomatic, high road approach, and his views won out.

All Nicodemus1968 is going to do, or any other Oneness person for that matter, is alienate the people he is hoping to convert. If we cannot correctly and faithfully represent the very basics of what others believe, we will only ever engender their mistrust and anger, and in the process, lose our chance at winning people to the truth.

If you belong to Christ, let me assure you, He demands better than that.
Good points. You are right. Sorry I didn’t mean to upset you.
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  #137  
Old 04-12-2021, 05:02 PM
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Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
From your response, you said the son of God is not God. You see the son as just a human body. I think I now understand why you keep saying “the humanity”
I believe in the son of God, I believe he was born of a women yet created not by the blood of Joseph yet that of God. I believe he walked on this earth, ate food, slept, felt pain, felt rejection, was tempted in all manner as we are. If I made you feel that the body of Jesus was just another human being, then forgive me. I just don’t believe the natural, physical, humanity however you want to say it, is now the form of God. I do not believe Jesus Christ is a human being up in heaven, I believe Jesus Christ is God of the Old Covenant therefore he is a spirit.

Hebrews 1:1-2 KJVS
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.


Now, when this verse mentions “Son” what is it referring to? It’s referring to the earthly ministry of Jesus as he physically walked on this earth. The son isn’t a separate god, or a divine (godlike) person in some trinitarian view. Its God himself in human form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
I see the Son of God as God himself in human form not just a body. Here are a few reasons:

Looking at the time when “the humanity” was on earth:
Jn 10
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jn 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Notice that on multiple occasions, the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy because he called himself the Son of God. Notice in John 10:33 the Jews said Jesus should not make himself equal to God since he is just a man. The Jews recognized what Son of God equates to God.
I totally agree.

Pharisees deal with what a lot of people deal with today, all they see is the physical and never can comprehend the spiritual. Where me and you differ is I believe the spirit that manifest in the humanity was God, however, the humanity, the flesh is not God.

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Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
Continuing, per your response, you said the humanity was done with after his ascension. So now, let’s look at the time after “the humanity” was supposedly done with:

1 Jn 5
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
The apostle John said to be born of God (born again), one must believe that Jesus is (not was) the Son of God. Whoever believes this overcomes the world. The apostle is still referring to Jesus as the Son of God years after his ascension.

1 Thess1:10
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Apostle Paul is telling the Thessalonians to expect the Son back from heaven years after his ascension. This definitely shows (at least to me) that the Son was in heaven during the times of the Thessalonians.

I have shown you that Jesus called himself the Son of God while on earth and that equated to being God.
Is this talking about the humanity, the body of Jesus Christ coming out of Heaven, or is it referring to his ministry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
Now, let’s look at what Jesus called himself years after his ascension while in heaven.

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Notice Jesus call himself the Son of God tears after “the humanity” supposedly was done with. There are many other scriptures that show Jesus is CURRENTLY the Son of God, but these should suffice.
Again, are we referring to the physical, or are we reading about the ministry, ie, the spiritual? Is there a human body in heaven with scars on his back, feet, hands, and side? Remember, the ministry of Jesus was one that disrupted their traditions, he came with authority, he came with love, he overturned their tables, and brought victory not over Rome, yet over sin. There is a spiritual law that Christ provided to us through his ministry. He talked about demons walking through dry places, we know realize that demons can cause sickness, deaf and dumbness, how? Because he allowed us to see past the natural and into the spiritual.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
On to your question-
You asked “in heaven right now, what is God in the form of and what is Jesus in the form of?”
I believe 1 cor 15 thoroughly answers this question. It’s a long scripture so I’ll just emphasize some verses in there.
1 cor 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So what form is Jesus in right now? The spiritual (incorruptible) body with which he was raised from the dead. Paul said we too shall have the same body at the resurrection.

Apostle John said the same thing:
1 Jn 1:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
We will have the same spiritual body that Jesus has.

What form is God in? Jesus is God (at least to me), so God exists SIMULTANEOUSLY as the incorporeal Spirit he has always been AND as the resurrected Christ.
Paul was explaining the natural to the spiritual, yet he mentions we were sown in corruption and we raised in incorruption. Jesus Christ was not that way in any of the examples.

1 Corinthians 15:50 KJVS
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


In this verse Paul explains, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Humanities physical nature will not be that spiritual body that we will have on the other side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
Your other question- “is there humanity in heaven?”
Like I showed you from 1 cor 15- Jesus has a spiritual body in heaven right now (not our adamic, corrupt flesh). And we too will receive the same spiritual body at the resurrection. So there will be plenty “humanity” in heaven at some point..lol

2 cor 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven
That doesn’t state that Jesus is a human being in heaven.

How will you know who Jesus is in that Heavenly realm?
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  #138  
Old 04-12-2021, 06:41 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
I believe in the son of God, I believe he was born of a women yet created not by the blood of Joseph yet that of God. I believe he walked on this earth, ate food, slept, felt pain, felt rejection, was tempted in all manner as we are. If I made you feel that the body of Jesus was just another human being, then forgive me. I just don’t believe the natural, physical, humanity however you want to say it, is now the form of God. I do not believe Jesus Christ is a human being up in heaven, I believe Jesus Christ is God of the Old Covenant therefore he is a spirit.

Hebrews 1:1-2 KJVS
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.


Now, when this verse mentions “Son” what is it referring to? It’s referring to the earthly ministry of Jesus as he physically walked on this earth. The son isn’t a separate god, or a divine (godlike) person in some trinitarian view. Its God himself in human form.



I totally agree.

Pharisees deal with what a lot of people deal with today, all they see is the physical and never can comprehend the spiritual. Where me and you differ is I believe the spirit that manifest in the humanity was God, however, the humanity, the flesh is not God.



Is this talking about the humanity, the body of Jesus Christ coming out of Heaven, or is it referring to his ministry?



Again, are we referring to the physical, or are we reading about the ministry, ie, the spiritual? Is there a human body in heaven with scars on his back, feet, hands, and side? Remember, the ministry of Jesus was one that disrupted their traditions, he came with authority, he came with love, he overturned their tables, and brought victory not over Rome, yet over sin. There is a spiritual law that Christ provided to us through his ministry. He talked about demons walking through dry places, we know realize that demons can cause sickness, deaf and dumbness, how? Because he allowed us to see past the natural and into the spiritual.




Paul was explaining the natural to the spiritual, yet he mentions we were sown in corruption and we raised in incorruption. Jesus Christ was not that way in any of the examples.

1 Corinthians 15:50 KJVS
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


In this verse Paul explains, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Humanities physical nature will not be that spiritual body that we will have on the other side.



That doesn’t state that Jesus is a human being in heaven.

How will you know who Jesus is in that Heavenly realm?
THe disciples preached "Jesus of NAZARETH" in Acts.
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  #139  
Old 04-12-2021, 07:45 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
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Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Then Apostolics who don't understand their own doctrine well enough ought to be the first ones to shut up when it comes to trying to understand someone else's doctrine.

That's the very foundation of humility and sincerity, as opposed to arrogance and hypocrisy.
I agree with you on this. I also believe that is where the value of this forum comes into play. In any organization (or almost any) once the bylaws (or doctrine in this case) is established by the leadership, it becomes a matter of allegiance to the organization and the leadership. I think this may be why the church was supposed to have a plurality of elders, instead of a single, central leader, also known as a pastor. We become a sound bite Christian that parrots the words of the pastor, instead of digging out our own well.

I have attended for years, a Bible study that is a sort of round table, small group where everyone is encouraged to give an answer, not on every question, but at least be involved. In this type of study it is remarkable how many high-value answers that are given. Sometimes these answers come from the quietest and most introverted people. It helps me to understand the importance of the scripture where Paul instructs us on having church . . .

1Corinthians 14

[29] Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
[30] If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

We don’t typically do this in our Apostolic churches.

Maybe we should.

I’m sorry, of course we should. It’s the Apostolic way.
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  #140  
Old 04-13-2021, 06:39 AM
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Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
THe disciples preached "Jesus of NAZARETH" in Acts.
Absolutely agree with you.

I fully agree and understand that God manifested himself in flesh. Why, because he is a spirit, and a spirit....

Luke 24:39 KJVS
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


So, therefore he he robed himself in humanity and took on the form of a servant to fulfill his will and plan that he had from the foundation of the earth.

Revelation 13:8 KJVS
[8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Even Abraham had and understanding of the plan of the Lord,

Genesis 22:8 KJVS
[8]And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.


Humanity of Christ was born of a woman yet the blood the life, was that of God. The spirit that indwelled that temple was that, that spoke this world into existence. He came with a purpose, and that was to set them at liberty that were bound in sin, he came to give his followers authority, and power in the spirit. He came to give us and understanding of the spirit and to give a spirit that will love souls and hate sin. The prophets in the old covenant haven’t received what we have received in Acts 2:38, neither have the angels.

Anyways, we understand you cannot kill a spirit, we understand a spirit doesn’t have flesh and bones.

Matthew 27:46 KJVS
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


The spirit left the temple as it died.

Three days later it was raised to life again. Jesus said this was going to happen

John 2:19 KJVS
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.


What was he going to raise up? The body that he was in dwelling in. The spirit didn’t die, but the humanity did. The humanity was never God, and will never be God. I understand we have all these paintings that depict Jesus with long flowing hair, and he is standing in the clouds with scars on his hands, feet, and side. Yet, that the corrupt imagination of man. Jesus is a Spirit, because he is God, its not Jesus the human, and then God the father, the spirit being. He is One, not 3 in one (confusion) neither is it 2 in one ( also confusion).

Romans 1:23 KJVS
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
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