The OT saints apparent disadvantage

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I wouldn’t think so. Maybe I’m not sure what you’re meaning is but I don’t believe the OT saints were in hell.




I like this portion. I believe it is at least partially true. I still believe that they were only granted remission of sins through the blood of Christ.

In condensed form:

The blood sacrifice of animals did not have the power to remit sin. It could only delay the consequences or roll them ahead for another year. Next year the same process would begin all over. Because . . .

Heb.10

[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Only the blood of Jesus can remit sins. The other blood was a temporary fix. So, for them to have eternal forgiveness Christ’s blood has to settle the account.

Don’t you think?

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.



For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. (1 Pet. 3:18–20)


Yes. I believe that the blood of Christ was definitely needed...Im speaking of merely when the blood was applied in the respect of which side of the sod folks were living when it happened.

[Scott Pitta]

The Ryrie quote evades me.

Men have always been justified by faith.

The grace of God is seen in every dispensation.

God is always the focus of faith.

How the blood is applied changes.

Ideas ?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

The Ryrie quote evades me.

Men have always been justified by faith.

The grace of God is seen in every dispensation.

God is always the focus of faith.

How the blood is applied changes.

Ideas ?

I agree with the above comments. What I’m trying to focus on is how the blood being applied changed.

I don’t remember hearing much teaching about it.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I agree with the above comments. What I’m trying to focus on is how the blood being applied changed.

I don’t remember hearing much teaching about it.

I grew up hearing it wasnt applied until the 3 steps were completed.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

This and the other passage were examined in depth here in the thread on 1 Peter, Jude, the fallen angels, etc. I forgot the title, but it was started by brother Benincasa (where's he been?)...

Long story short: "them that are dead" are Christians who had died prior to when the epistle was written, and is not about preaching to people who were THEN dead, but rather who ARE NOW dead.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. (1 Pet. 3:18–20)

The Spirit of Christ preached (Christ preaching by the Spirit) to the disobedient in Noah's day. That preaching was done by Noah at that time, not by Jesus in the first century to those who died in the Flood. Nobody is getting a second chance to believe in Jesus AFTER they died, as far as I can read my Bible. Remember, it says they are the DISOBEDIENT who perished in the Flood. They heard Noah's preaching but REJECTED it. These are not "old testament saints" by any stretch.

Yes. I believe that the blood of Christ was definitely needed...Im speaking of merely when the blood was applied in the respect of which side of the sod folks were living when it happened.

Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So His blood applies to all the saved, both before and after Calvary. Abraham believed God, and was declared righteous (justified). The blood was applied at the point of his faith.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

This and the other passage were examined in depth here in the thread on 1 Peter, Jude, the fallen angels, etc. I forgot the title, but it was started by brother Benincasa (where's he been?)...

Long story short: "them that are dead" are Christians who had died prior to when the epistle was written, and is not about preaching to people who were THEN dead, but rather who ARE NOW dead.





The Spirit of Christ preached (Christ preaching by the Spirit) to the disobedient in Noah's day. That preaching was done by Noah at that time, not by Jesus in the first century to those who died in the Flood. Nobody is getting a second chance to believe in Jesus AFTER they died, as far as I can read my Bible. Remember, it says they are the DISOBEDIENT who perished in the Flood. They heard Noah's preaching but REJECTED it. These are not "old testament saints" by any stretch.



Christ is the Lamb and slain from the foundation of the world. So His blood applies to all the saved, both before and after Calvary. Abraham believed God, and was declared righteous (justified). The blood was applied at the point of his faith.

This is a really good point. Thanks for pointing that out. It certainly brings that passage into focus.

[1 God]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

I grew up hearing it wasnt applied until the 3 steps were completed.

Priest kills sacrifice...Jesus becomes sacrifice....we repent(die).
Priest washes...Jesus baptized...we are buried with Christ in baptism.
Priest passes into the Holy of Holies....Jesus passed the vail...we receive the Holy Ghost.
We do all this by faith to have the blood applied. Skip one element equals no faith and no blood applied.

[coksiw]

Esaias,

Ezekiel 36:25-28 (NKJV) 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

Key phrase: cause you to walk [in His Word]

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NKJV) 31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Key phrase: put My law [directly] in their minds and hearts. Everybody in the church will know the Lord.


How is that fulfilled in the Church?

In the OT:
* The Spirit instructed Israel through Moses (Neh 9:20)
* Levites were expected to teach the Law to the people (Lev 10:11)
* Parents were expected to teach the Law to the children (Deut 4:9)
* People were led by the Spirit or the Spirit at least strove with them for repentance.
* Some people received the anointing to be prophets and speak to the people of God (Neh 9:30). The Spirit spoke through prophets.


Let's see the New Testament:
* God's children are led by the Spirit
* God's children receive the promise of the Spirit
* The Lord gives ministry gifts within the assembly to edify the assembly (Eph 4:11-13)
* The Spirit gives spiritual gifts within the assembly to edify the assembly (1 Cor 12:4-11)
* The gift of tongues is also for self-edification (1 Cor 14:4)

Let me add one more thing here.

1) John tells an assembly that 1 John 2:27 (KJV) 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. It is a ye, not a you, so it is talking to the congregation as a whole, not to a single individual knowing all things.

2) Paul says things like this:

1 Thessalonians 4:9 (NKJV) 9 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;

... and also...

Ephesians 4:20-21 (NKJV) 20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:

So the apostles did have an expectation of the Spirit to teach them Jesus directly to them, and I believe is by the operating of the ministry gifts and spiritual gifts.

I have the impression that those prophecies are closely related with the abrogation of the Levitical ministry of teaching the Law. And then in the NT, the giving of the Spirit, and then the ministry and spiritual gifts for the assemblies edification. The Spirit prepares the saints for the ministry, through vessels of course. The Spirit calls. The Spirit is highly involved in the Church as they are all filled with the Spirit. You definitely see in Acts the active role of the Spirit raising churches, and ministries, and operating within them.


Let me add another ones to the mix:
3) Jesus said this:
John 6:44-45 (NKJV) 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Notice that he talks about it as if it was already fulfilled, or was being fulfilled right during his ministry. Hmm...



Thoughts of how are those prophecies exactly fulfilled as something different from the nation of Israel?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

The Ryrie quote evades me.

Men have always been justified by faith.

The grace of God is seen in every dispensation.

God is always the focus of faith.

How the blood is applied changes.

Ideas ?

No blood is applied ever.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Esaias,

Ezekiel 36:25-28 (NKJV) 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

Key phrase: cause you to walk [in His Word]

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NKJV) 31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Key phrase: put My law [directly] in their minds and hearts. Everybody in the church will know the Lord.


How is that fulfilled in the Church?

In the OT:
* The Spirit instructed Israel through Moses (Neh 9:20)
* Levites were expected to teach the Law to the people (Lev 10:11)
* Parents were expected to teach the Law to the children (Deut 4:9)
* People were led by the Spirit or the Spirit at least strove with them for repentance.
* Some people received the anointing to be prophets and speak to the people of God (Neh 9:30). The Spirit spoke through prophets.


Let's see the New Testament:
* God's children are led by the Spirit
* God's children receive the promise of the Spirit
* The Lord gives ministry gifts within the assembly to edify the assembly (Eph 4:11-13)
* The Spirit gives spiritual gifts within the assembly to edify the assembly (1 Cor 12:4-11)
* The gift of tongues is also for self-edification (1 Cor 14:4)

Let me add one more thing here.

1) John tells an assembly that 1 John 2:27 (KJV) 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. It is a ye, not a you, so it is talking to the congregation as a whole, not to a single individual knowing all things.

2) Paul says things like this:

1 Thessalonians 4:9 (NKJV) 9 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;

... and also...

Ephesians 4:20-21 (NKJV) 20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:

So the apostles did have an expectation of the Spirit to teach them Jesus directly to them, and I believe is by the operating of the ministry gifts and spiritual gifts.

I have the impression that those prophecies are closely related with the abrogation of the Levitical ministry of teaching the Law. And then in the NT, the giving of the Spirit, and then the ministry and spiritual gifts for the assemblies edification. The Spirit prepares the saints for the ministry, through vessels of course. The Spirit calls. The Spirit is highly involved in the Church as they are all filled with the Spirit. You definitely see in Acts the active role of the Spirit raising churches, and ministries, and operating within them.


Let me add another ones to the mix:
3) Jesus said this:
John 6:44-45 (NKJV) 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Notice that he talks about it as if it was already fulfilled, or was being fulfilled right during his ministry. Hmm...



Thoughts of how are those prophecies exactly fulfilled as something different from the nation of Israel?

They aren't being fulfilled "as something different from the nation of Israel". The new covenant was made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel.