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Old 06-13-2024, 01:27 PM
donfriesen1 donfriesen1 is offline
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John3 and Romans2: Part1

Jesus name baptism is for remission of sin. Therefore, an unbaptized person doesn't have remission. Using that statement, it's been said by some, 'an unbaptized person goes to Hell'. That view neglects a portion of the Word; therefore, not the whole counsel of God. An explanation follows.

Before the scriptural explanation, an illustration: Someone refuses to pay-off a credit-debt at a small store. Emotions are high, harsh words spoken. Finally, a cheque is written, and with great relief, mailed. The store-owner, seeing the cheque, accepts it in good faith, thinking, 'I'm repaid.' Their sour attitude mellows, informing staff: 'I'll allow them to buy on credit again'. And sends the cheque to the accountant.

The accountant opens the accounts-payable ledger, marking the debt 'paid in full'. It now looks like everyone is in a better position because the debt is settled, not only by the giving/receiving of the cheque but by the book-keeper's entry. Not fully settled without this formality. But, are we not forgetting that the cheque must clear the bank? Right, bankers? A cheque is not actual payment, but a token of payment, which the bank facilitates on a suitable account. Its value is hardly more than a piece of paper, unless recognized as 'a promise of payment' that it is.

Does this illustration reflect Heavenly Truth of a sinner and God?

Synopsis: A sinner, refusing to settle, finally relents by repenting, feeling oh so good. This is the debtor mailing the cheque. And God, rejoicing with the angels, has a change in attitude. This is the store owner seeing the cheque in his hand. Repentance, on the sinner's side, boils down to: confession/contrition for disobedience with amends; but is also a token, a perhaps-unspoken promise to follow God's requirements in the future. God responds with a forgiving attitude. Though both God and sinner have relief, the debt is not fully satisfied until the Record has been marked. Baptism, the on-earth ceremony, symbolizes the actual remission, which takes place where? In the water? In the heart? God's heart? In God's Record? All? Even so, there will be some, though experiencing the earthly-act normally bringing remission, will hear "I never knew you, workers of iniquity"; remission not being applied, the cheque not clearing Heaven's bank; in spite of compliance to the baptism command. God, either does not write their name in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world in his foreknowledge Mt 25.34* Rev 17.8* (If in foreknowledge the names aren't written, the place must be in Heaven, because the earth is 'not yet', nor has the sinner's heart yet been created); or instead, their written names are blotted.

Can the same be said for the Sin Record as for the Name Record, that it also is in Heaven? Rev 20.12* shows Books opened at the Judgment, perhaps indicating these Record Books/others. If the place of remission takes place in God's Record in Heaven, then the actual place of remission does not take place on earth or in man's heart. (This would then deny the possibility of someone unbaptized carrying unremitted sin to Heaven, as is sometimes insinuated. Sin is not a substance carried around by Man. This thinking prevents the thought that a person could carry sin into Heaven, nor be able to pollute it thereby. Sin is not something carried like an object any more than obedience is, and Heaven would not be polluted by an unbaptized soul, though not having remission. I know this is convoluted thinking, which may be right thinking, but, plz try to understand what it is I'm trying to say and read on anyway.)

Scripture presents God's parts in Reconciliation as separate events: ie, change-of-attitude-at-repentance, the act of remission, receiving the Spirit, etc. It might be asked of the Lord by a thinking person, "Why is the necessity of remission commanded when we know your mind knows your heart-attitude has changed at repentance, even before baptism?" In thinking it this way some wrongly reason that baptismal remission is redundant, or double-coverage, perhaps seen as just a formality, though it is rightly known to be more than just a change in God's attitude. Ie, it is also a change in a Record with any of its accompanying results. Why is the One regarded with the highest of integrity and greatest-of-all memory seen as relying, not on his perfect memory but on Records? Is it because the Record is also for other purposes -- other's uses; such as daily operations with any changes of benefits needed to be applied when people transition between Kingdoms, and the resulting line-up changes staff need to be aware of to correctly fulfill duties? Is it also to make a Record available for public view, to justify to all, principalities and powers included, at the time everlasting judgments and rewards are dispensed, to be seen by Record as responding fairly, doing it 'according to the Record'? It's not recorded for God's memory purposes.

Repentance, the token in the remedy-for-sin solution (the Lord does not have 2 processes for remission: one at repentance; a second at baptism; these are separate parts of the same process), is received in good faith resulting in God's change of attitude: his rejoicing with the angels. When statements are made, like 'those not baptized go to hell', it may be seen as eagerness to ........ those Jesus is eagerly in the process of forgiving/rejoicing over; also overlooking that there is a place in Heaven for people who haven't been Born Again, starting with the obvious: the many righteous from before the OT (ie, Enoch) and from the OT Period, but not so limited. As to those not Born Again from the NT Period, Romans 2 says "12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.​"

Paul here says some right-acting Gentiles, not knowing the religion of the Law, presumably then also not ever hearing of the religion of the New Birth, the NT not yet written, are judged as Justified (this is implied, not stated). If these are judged fit for Heaven, does it not also indicate that the One who rejoices over a sinner who by conscience felt compelled to repent, might also find a place in Heaven for those who 'Only Repented', though not baptized? Perhaps. And what could be said contrary wise, when Ro 2 speaks as it does? What would compel a different outcome in similar scenarios from the same Judge during the same NT Age (one person, living-right knowing the Law; the other living-right not knowing it)? The Truth of Jn 3.5 does not nullify or displace Ro 2 from a place of Truth. They co-exist. If not so, instead it being said 'all unbaptized repentant go to Hell', the result then, at the instant the NT Age began is, that all those who were living right (like any in North America, there not being enough time for the Gospel to reach them perhaps for months/years) would instantly 'fall short' and be condemned, though they've had no changes in their right actions, making God appear unjust if he accepted them pre-Pentecost but condemned them the day following. But doesn't Ro 2 indicate God thinking otherwise than this? If those in N.A. without the Law are considered righteous the day before Pentecost, they don't instantly lose their righteousness the day of Pentecost just because the New Birth has come into effect. God won't be seen as using different yardsticks to measure similar scenarios with different outcomes. The right-living N. Americans wouldn't be seen as righteous before Ac 2.38, but the instant after Ac 2.38 comes into effect, seen as unrighteous and unfit for Heaven.

*Mt 25.34 Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
*Rev 17.8 And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, (assumes names of the righteous are written instead.)
*Rev 20.12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.​

Part2 to follow.
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Old 06-14-2024, 09:43 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: John3 and Romans2: Part1

Quote:
Originally Posted by donfriesen1 View Post
As to those not Born Again from the NT Period, Romans 2 says "12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.​"

Paul here says some right-acting Gentiles, not knowing the religion of the Law, presumably then also not ever hearing of the religion of the New Birth, the NT not yet written, are judged as Justified (this is implied, not stated).
I think you have misinterpreted (or misapplied) this passage in Romans to unregenerate persons. Paul speaks of these gentiles as "showing the work of the law written in their hearts". The Bible identifies the writing of the law in the heart as a key element of thenew covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-33 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:6-10 KJV
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The old covenant did not produce a people that bore the fruits of righteousness, reflecting God's moral character in their lives. The new covenant was established to remedy that problem, to produce obedience, to produce a people who did in fact reflect the character of our Father:

Romans 8:3-7 KJV
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then when Paul speaks of the uncircumcised actually doing the things contained in the law, thus showing the "work of the law written in their hearts", these must of necessity be regenerated persons, people in the new covenant, who have experienced the writing of God's law in the heart by the Spirit of God, even though they are not physically circumcised.

So it seems the context of Paul's words is those who are in the new covenant, that the uncircumcised (gentile Christian) would be justified rather than the circumcised (Jewish non-christian), that the disobedient but circumcised Jew would fare worse than the obedient but uncircumcised Christian.
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Old 06-14-2024, 10:17 AM
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Re: John3 and Romans2: Part1

Since this discussion appears to be posted in two parts, should we just move everything to the most recent part to keep the discussion in one place?
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