History of Tithes in the Church

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

That post was not meant about paying tithes. It was about biblical prophecy coming to pass.

To be honest, nothing is obvious about the ten lepers. Maybe they just happened to be ten. Sometimes I think we get what we look for. If the Bible doesn’t say it is a type, then maybe it isn’t.

Do you have something in mind that you believe it represents?

Brother Blume is in my opinion, always looking for these types. But oddly enough he doesn’t seem to have any inclination to teach the plainly spoken truth in the Bible about tithes. Strange.

He says it’s just giving. But I don’t think that’s the case. Tithes given at his church go into his pocket IIRC. Other than tithes, goes to the church.

Brother Blume? Can you verify this info?

Has anyone heard from Brother Blume lately? It seems to me that insofar as tithing discussions go, when the scriptures come out, he has to leave. Odd how that works.

Brother Steve Epley seems to have the same malady.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Amen. That seems to sum it up quite succinctly.
I know a preacher (UPCI) that said something to the effect of “okay, if tithes as we teach it is not acceptable, let’s figure out how to fund the church “.

My thought, we begin with something that is not a lie, that is clearly based on scripture.

I don’t know- Free will offerings come to mind, for some reason.

The scripture says ALL liars will have their place in the lake of fire. But preachers obviously don’t believe it. They think somehow God is going to be proud of them for lying about tithes. Interesting.

The idea that the Church that the gates of hell cannot withstand, is so weak that we must lie to coerce giving, boggles my mind.

All kinds of organizations survive without collecting tithes. But the church has to lie, manipulate scripture, add to or subtract from scripture, extort, beg, deceive, and don’t forget have their special government status, in many cases.

What’s wrong with the church? The gates of hell better be made of paper mache!

We begin with something thats not a lie and we make peace with the idea that the end result of what we end up with may not look like what we have now...

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

We begin with something thats not a lie and we make peace with the idea that the end result of what we end up with may not look like what we have now...

I think it would be far more honest (compared to the current model) to just charge admission at the door. If you can’t buy the ticket, you just can’t enter.

Maybe we should accept bids on all paid positions as well. Accept bids for the position of pastor for a given time period. Have a public bid opening as they do with construction projects. Select five candidates who would be acceptable, and open the bids and have the church vote on who they want. (Invited to bid competitively).

A bit sarcastic perhaps but maybe it would be a more honest system.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I personally believe every intricate detail has prophetic fulfillment.

The OT has a lot of numbers, and some have some meaning to it: tenth, seventh, 50ths, etc.... They do enforce certain things, and the enforcement expressed in the law reflects some characteristics of God.

Example, give tenth of land production increase, forgive debts on the sabbath year, return the properties every 50th year to their original owners, etc...

There is meaning to the numbers, and righteousness principle to the underlying law, but the principle is not in the number.

Do you forgive all debts every 7th year? You may be breaking this law in your 401k/IRA bonds funds.

Do you return land property every 50th year? Your land your house or church building is at, may be overdue already.

In the New Covenant in Christ, there is no such laws.. However, there are principles behind, but they are not in the numbers. The numbers may communicate a message, but they themselves are not the principle. The principle comes down to mercy, forgiveness, no exploitation of your brethren, etc...., which comes down to righteousness in all aspects of life.


You don't have to find a principle in the "tenth", but definitely in the sharing of your blessing with the poor and those that spend hours of their life preparing to teach and preach to others (that's how the tenth was used). 10th used to enforce it, as 7th did, and as 50th did, but now, you don't use it as a principle, as you don't use as a principle the 7th for forgiveness, and then 50th to put a stop to exploitation.

Yes, tenth was practiced before the law was given, as it was animal sacrifice, distinction between clean and unclean animals, and the sabbath.

Tenth is special because the Semitic number system was 10 based, and a tenth was likely an easy calculation math: remove a digit.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by coksiw

And that's how you plan to dismiss my words. Why don't you prove it please?



Tithing teachers use mainly the OT to support tithing of all income in the NT, and that's the discussion at hand. Now you are trying to abstract it out to say tithing teachers are not doing that but instead say that people want to give 1/10 just because is cool? Aren't you tithing teacher using the OT to prove your principle? Don't you see that our point is the gross miss application of the OT tithing (pre or post Moses) to the NT, and how you have to come up with some illegitimate 1/10 principle application to then bring the tithing of all income to the NT? Are you greater than the apostles that taught and talked a lot about money but never found OT tithing applicable in any ways to the NT saints?



If the text is in a context giving to support the apostles, so what? the apostle Paul decided to switch topics to talk about the support to Jerusalem 7 chapters later. What's your point?

I teach that people can give tithes and I don't use the Old Testament to prove it or support it. I just say that they gave tithes back then and you can do that today as well. I don't go into anything about people being cursed if they don't do it like the law did. I don't go into anything about what exactly was tithes in the old testament. I just use it to say that it's a good example of how you can give. So don't put words in my mouth. The way you described it, how that people can give a tenth and it's cool to do so, is exactly how I do it. I don't bring any legalities of Law and don't use the law to prove it or anything like that. Sacrifice is in the Old Testament too, and we all believe we need to sacrifice today as well. But we don't sacrifice in exactly the precise way that they did in the old testament. But we still use the principle of sacrifice. That's the issue, and that's why I say you're twisting what I'm saying because I never said anything about using the law to prove giving of tithes.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I teach that people can give tithes and I don't use the Old Testament to prove it or support it. I just say that they gave tithes back then and you can do that today as well. I don't go into anything about people being cursed if they don't do it like the law did. I don't go into anything about what exactly was tithes in the old testament. I just use it to say that it's a good example of how you can give. So don't put words in my mouth. The way you described it, how that people can give a tenth and it's cool to do so, is exactly how I do it. I don't bring any legalities of Law and don't use the law to prove it or anything like that. Sacrifice is in the Old Testament too, and we all believe we need to sacrifice today as well. But we don't sacrifice in exactly the precise way that they did in the old testament. But we still use the principle of sacrifice. That's the issue, and that's why I say you're twisting what I'm saying because I never said anything about using the law to prove giving of tithes.

Do you have pulpit preachers and teachers in your church that do not tithe and you still let them do their ministry? How about any leader in any ministry?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Do you have pulpit preachers and teachers in your church that do not tithe and you still let them do their ministry? How about any leader in any ministry?

I do, but they really give more than a tenth if you actually added it all up. A legalistic view would be you are not giving tithe unless it goes in the pan. I see how people burn their gas to get our church kids to church related functions. They also spend on things that is for the kingdom.

[good samaritan]

No judgement, but if you love God it is gonna show in how your budget is applied. I am not talking just about an offering pan. I believe coksiw brought up supporting family in need. I believe that is all giving as unto the Lord. If that is the situation I would never discourage someone, but would want to help too if I could.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Good Samaritan,

You really should study what Paul really taught. Actions speak louder than words. But he taught that leadership should support the church, and not necessarily the other way around. An example that you have cited, (him robbing other churches so that he could preach the gospel to this particular church for free) is not really describing a pastor/church relationship as we know it. It is more of an evangelist relationship or a missionary relationship. Wouldn’t you agree?

For a much better example of an elder relationship towards the church, we should study the following passage . . .

[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
[18] And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
[19] Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
[20] And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
[21] Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
[22] And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
[23] Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
[24] But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
[25] And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
[26] Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
[27] For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
[28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
[31] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
[32] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
[33] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[34] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
[36] And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.
[37] And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him,

Please study this passage. He taught them by example, to support the weak in the church. He supported himself AND those with him with his very hands. (Manual labor by definition). I realize this is not popular with pastors, who have come up with their own versions of justifying what they prefer to believe. But I implore you to study and understand what the scripture actually says about the subject.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Sometimes it’s the best way to learn.

1 Cor 9 speaks about the believer supporting the minister who ministers to the believer. Paul allowed himself to forego that due to the carnality of believers who balked at supporting the ministry to their own shame. But that's the clear context of 1 Cor 9.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Do you have pulpit preachers and teachers in your church that do not tithe and you still let them do their ministry? How about any leader in any ministry?

I have never asked a minister who preached for me if they tithe or not.