How Far Should The UPC Go to Appease Them?

[NLYP]

Originally Posted by jrLA

Patiently Waiting!

Ok....now go.

[AGAPE]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Sounds like you have a problem with submission.

I submit to you my brother....that

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by AGAPE

Upc is not a "church" it is an Org..
If I don't want to go by the rules I leave...


(as in Carmen)

Same as with a "church", is it not? If you don't like the "rules" in a church you find yourself a new place to worship.

The distinction was being made because some people were questioning the recruiting tactics of the WwPF and compared it to "stealing saints" or proselytizing. To head off that argument, WwPF supporters said that the UPC wasn't a "church" and so you could freely solicit its membership for the new org.

Originally Posted by embonpoint

"known facts" presented without data usually means long circulated gossip, innuendo and speculation. All common weapons for those commiting character assassination from the "moral high ground". Just remember to compensate for shooting down hill.

While I appreciate your acknowledgement that I am standing on the "moral high ground," I must say that I have avoided overt character assassination by not naming the guilty parties. Perhaps I should have chosen a different set of words, such as "It has been observed that the congregation of a certain member of the T-6 seems to be populated with a large number of saints that formerly attended other UPC churches in the area." And "There are unimpeachable witnesses who can testify to having been greeted in public places, only to be then asked if they would consider joining the aforementioned congregation." But then again, I'm not that smart...

By the way, actually naming names could have legal implications. I try to avoid legal trouble...it's expensive!

[WyoPastor]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

The WPF isn't trying to solicit members from the UPC churches to go to the WPF churches that are opening up across town... In fact I don't know of any new WPF churches that are opening up. Churches with UPC pastors are pulling out of the UPC, going WPF and making their churches affiliated with the WPF. On the WPF website it says they are NOT supposed to prosletize members of other Apostolic churches.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

What about ministers, including our former DS-who lost his office last spring, trying to prosletize other ministers to join WPF?

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by WyoPastor

What about ministers, including our former DS-who lost his office last spring, trying to prosletize other ministers to join WPF?

[NW Pastor]

Originally Posted by bishoph

While I certainly do not seek to argue about the particulars of "the church" versus "a church," I would have to disagree with you in calling the UPCI a church.

IMHO the UPCI is a ministerial association which was founded for the sake of fellowship and the propagation of the Gospel to the whole world. In a legal sense it is a non-profit corporation, nothing less nothing more. There are individual ministers and churches which are associated and or affiliated with said corporation, the UPCI, however, is not a church as an entity within itself.

I personally think this is one of the problems that UPC "lifers" have at times, they cannot separate the fact that the UPCI corp/organization is not a church. This is because, to some extent, this has been implied if not taught on a national/international level.

You seem to be an eloquent, reasoned apologist for the WPF. Perhaps you could explain why they are touting the dual membership so prominently if the by-laws of the WPF explicitly state that the Executive Chairman cannot be a part of any other ministerial organization. I guess this is an organization after all, not just a fellowship, as the propoganda proclaims.

To agree with Ferd, appeasement is the first step on the long road to bloodshed and humiliation.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by embonpoint

Appeasement?
No Way!!!
Throw ‘em out I say!!
Show ‘em who’s boss!

The UPC is a church and they need to be in submission to the Pastor.
After all the GS is the pastor of all the preachers in the UPC ….right??…
Oh wait…
I heard the DS is pastor of all the pastors in the district …..but some DS’s have left
Maybe it is the Presbyter over the section???
I forget which it is…..
maybe it is the Ass’t GS of my zone
But then what about my Executive Presbyter for the Zone?
Oh wait is it him or the Executive Presbyter for the region?

Maybe they’re all Co-Pastors.

It can get where a guy doesn’t even know who he is rebelling against.
But they’re rebellin’ against somethin’ so throw ‘em out!

And tell ‘em to take there dues and missions support with ‘em!
They don’t give anything anyway.
Missionaries can just come home and deputize another year or so!

They can sell a few campgrounds and talk about how people don’t really want to go to camp anymore anyhow.
Cut salaries
Sell HQ

And push anyone who sympathizes or fellowships with them right out the door too because they are the dividers, excluders and elitists that just keep stirring the pot

Maybe if the UPC gets rid of enough they will have churches every where.
If they throw everyone out just think how much easier it will be to double in a decade.

Yup great idea! Makes lots of sense to me.

Maybe those that pushed for res 4 the last few years can draft another unifying resolution for this year, outlawing the WPF and anyone else that left in the last 12 months.

Show those controllers who is boss! After all they’re the ones dividing!

Oh Brother!!!……..

This post is shows the spirit of the WWPF. WOW! I feel a little sarcasm!

Appeasement? Let them go! We will be better off without them! Money is not everything. Besides, I do know for a fact that some of the leaders of WWPF did not give one cent to Foreign Missions last year. The UPC will move forward and be stronger than ever. Sit back and watch. JMHO

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Dan

This post is shows the spirit of the WWPF. WOW! I feel a little sarcasm!

Appeasement? Let them go! We will be better off without them! Money is not everything. Besides, I do know for a fact that some of the leaders of WWPF did not give one cent to Foreign Missions last year. The UPC will move forward and be stronger than ever. Sit back and watch. JMHO

I hope you're right Dan. However much of the anti-UPC crowd within the UPC still exists there. If the WwPF represented some sort of clean break between two polar opposites then even I would support them. But most of the CAF and AMC types are in a holding pattern.

We need Oneness bodies that represent their constituency. As the UPC kept passing holier resolutions over the years it lost touch with its constituency. When there was a slight tremor in Tampa to retake some ground that had been lost to the radicals, the radicals freaked out, but not all of them have left.

Someone should reintroduce the original merger documents for a vote. I think you would see a groundswell of support.

[embonpoint]

Originally Posted by Dan

This post is shows the spirit of the WWPF. WOW! I feel a little sarcasm!

Appeasement? Let them go! We will be better off without them! Money is not everything. Besides, I do know for a fact that some of the leaders of WWPF did not give one cent to Foreign Missions last year. The UPC will move forward and be stronger than ever. Sit back and watch. JMHO

Shows how desperate some are to attack the WPF as I am neither a part of the UPC nor the WPF and have no intention of joining the WPF. So tell me how I represent the "spirit" of the WPF?

It seems the WPF brethren are not the only ones capable of taking their marbles and going home. But some (many?) within the UPCI are also willing risk damage to the overall work of God in a fit of pique.

Originally Posted by Dan

WOW! I feel a little sarcasm!

Surely you jest?

Speaking of sarcasm it seems I recall hearing the GS of the UPCI at GC in Toronto say, "We appreciate this large crowd as a result of the letter writing campaigns that did not cost us 1 cent." If the Tulsa crowd is guilty of sarcasm, maybe they have learned it through past associations .
Maybe we should talk about where they might have learned to ignore elders also if they are in fact guilty of this.

The "just sit back and watch" advice you gave is the most sound JMHO.