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  #71  
Old 04-27-2021, 06:22 PM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
Matthew 27:46 KJVS
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


If we believe God the Son.
In this scripture, did God forsake himself?
He was quoting Psalm 22:1, which is the way people titled songs back then (by the first line) and also how different sections of Scripture were titled (by the first line of the section).

He wasn't forsaken, He was announcing the fulfillment of Psalm 22 which is all about the death of Messiah. He was telling them prophecy was being fulfilled right in front of them:

Psalm 22:1-31 KJV
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? [2] O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. [3] But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. [4] Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. [5] They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. [6] But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. [7] All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, [8] He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. [9] But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. [10] I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly. [11] Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help. [12] Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. [13] They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. [14] I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. [15] My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. [16] For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. [17] I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. [18] They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. [19] But be not thou far from me, O Lord : O my strength, haste thee to help me. [20] Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. [21] Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. [22] I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. [23] Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. [24] For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. [25] My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. [26] The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. [27] All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord : and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. [28] For the kingdom is the Lord's : and he is the governor among the nations. [29] All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. [30] A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. [31] They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

He was not forsaken:

John 16:31-33 KJV
Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? [32] Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. [33] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

He knew that during His Passion He would be forsaken by His disciples, but not by God.

Isaiah 53:10-11 KJV
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

God saw the travail of Christ during His Passion and was "satisfied" ie pleased with the fact that the Mission was accomplished.

When David penned Psalm 22 partly as a lament, asking God why He had forsaken him, was David in fact forsaken by God? No, rather as is abundantly clear throughout the Psalms, when God's people appear to be subdued or defeated by their enemies, they assert God had forsaken them ie given them over to the power of the enemy. It is not that God has dumped them or abandoned them, but that He has allowed their enemies a (temporary) victory.

Which is what happened at Calvary. God allowed the wicked to crucify the Saviour, a temporary victory on their part, but it was in fact God's mechanism for victory as proven by the resurrection and as declared by the Psalm.

The idea that God had abandoned Christ, or that Christ "for the first time felt the Father leave Him", or that God had to "turn away from His Son because of all the sin of the world being put on Christ", and other such things, are antichrist heresies born out of the Talmud and the fevered imaginations of trinitarian schizotheists, and not from Scripture.
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  #72  
Old 04-27-2021, 06:28 PM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Good question. Both Trinitarians and the Modalist branch of Oneness have God forsaking himself.
God did not forsake Christ, regardless of one's view of the godhead. If He had, Christ would not be the Saviour and His death would have been pointless. See my post to Nicodemus above.
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  #73  
Old 04-27-2021, 10:26 PM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

Going back to the start....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
So, then we can use the phrase, God the Son?
No, why would that imply God the Son?? Lol.

God was not born. Humanity that God Manifested in was Born. Simple.
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  #74  
Old 04-27-2021, 10:31 PM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Mike,

The situation in Luke 12 and the rich man and his private, internal cogitations is not at all the same as the situation we see between Jesus and the Father. You quoted the text at length and even emboldened some of the text as proof. Let me show you:



Notice what the man does as he thinks within himself: He asks Himself "What shall I do?

He then responds to His own personal musings:



Notice again the use of "I", the first person referent to Himself.

Then, as you show, he speaks to his own soul here:



Note the specificity of the Greek for "my soul":

τῇ ψυχῇ μου (tē psychē mou)

Literally, it reads "the soul of me". Mou is found in the Genitive Case, meaning personal possession or source of origin.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/12-19.htm

In every instance you shared from Luke 12, the narrative never suggests that the man is in any way speaking to anyone other than himself.

He, like many of us humans, is referring to himself in 3rd person. But when we do such things, we are not actually presupposing that our self is actually another person.

But note what Jesus says in John 17:5,



Jesus says quite clearly that the Father has a "self" that is differentiated and wholly not the self of Jesus/the Son.

The Greek phrasing is as follows:

παρὰ σεαυτῷ (para seautō)

Or literally, "with Yourself", noting that σεαυτῷ (seautō) "Yourself" is a compound of two words, namely:

σέ (se) meaning "you" and αὐτός (autos), meaning "self".

See:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/17-5.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/4572.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/4571.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/846.htm

This means that as far as Jesus was concerned, the Father was an entirely different person, if you will, or entity and identity, with a "self" that was not at all the self of the Son, but was unique to the Father alone.

It is therefore a mistake to use the situation of Luke 12 and the rich man's internal monologue as descriptive of the nature of the relationship between, and the differentiation of of the persons of, the Father and the Son.

The issue then is not limiting God or His ability. The limitations are from the Scriptures themselves, and from what Jesus actually said with the language He Himself employed, for our understanding.
You missed my point. I'm not saying that the way in which that rich man referred to himself is exactly the way we're supposed to understand the father and the son. I'm just saying in general that when people flip out to hear us say that the son is God and the father is God, and they're all one person, and they mock the concept as though it's crazy for one person to speak to himself, here we have a man speaking to himself.

and it appears like he's speaking to himself, people need to see that there's a similar, not exactly the same, picture with that example of that human being. In other words, the Bible is showing instances where people plainly speak to themselves as one single person.

Overall, I believe God has far more abilities than a human being does as a single person, speakig fro the standpoint that God is one person as Father and Son. He has divine nature and can actually manifest himself with another nature like humanity. It is folly to say that God cannot be one person and speak to Himself essentially as Son from his standpoint as Father because it is folly to limit his abilities with human beings who only have one nature. (my videos in the oneness section lay this all out). Who said that God cannot be one person as both Father and Son?

I propose that God is essentially speaking to Himself as Father to Son, but in a way that allows for that much of a distinction between the Father and Son that for us to repeat anything similar, we would require two human persons.

God as one person has the ability to manifest so perfect with ANOTHER NATURE, humanity in this case, knowing that true humanity requires reliance on deity, that those who unwittingly base their assessments of how many persons are in the godhead upon human beings as one person will insist He is at least two persons..... or, as in our case which SEEMS to be unitarian (correct me if I am wrong), demands there be one sole divine person in the Father and one sole strictly human person in the Son. I claim unitiarians and trinitarians both present a logical fallacy of thinkng we can assess God's personhood by basing it upon how single human persons are limited to be unable to converse like that and be one single person as both parties.

And that Humanity as Son and that deity as Father can actually relate to one another as you and I would relate, but all the while Father and Son is one divine person.

My point was that if a human being can have that limited kind of conversation with himself, and no one makes fun of the self conversing, how much more can God's single person actually manifest with another nature and have a more full and real interaction, but yet remain one person, and people mock that as they do?

I'll give more detail later. Just saw this tonight.
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Last edited by mfblume; 04-27-2021 at 11:02 PM.
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  #75  
Old 04-28-2021, 07:05 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
Matthew 27:46 KJVS
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


If we believe God the Son.
In this scripture, did God forsake himself?
No, God forsook "the last Adam"...another individual. The Father was his God that forsook him(if you believe the actual words Jesus said).
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  #76  
Old 04-28-2021, 07:10 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
So then Jesus isn't good. Right?
Jesus said only God is good, right? Jesus said "why callest thou me good", right"? Do you prefer Jesus would have said "sure, why not call me the good God"? You need to make sense of what Jesus said, not me.
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  #77  
Old 04-28-2021, 07:12 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
Because Jesus is quoting Psalm 22:1, which are also King David’s words, as a human, he can emotionally feel pain and suffering.

That would cause us to look at the level of love He had for us - while we were yet sinners, He died for us.

We owe Him our very lives.
No, the ancient Psalm quotes Jesus. Jesus was not quoting scripture on the cross.
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Old 04-28-2021, 07:18 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
I am recognizing that. "We" is plural. Can you have the Holy Spirit without "Christ in you"? No, you need the "we", you need to be in Christ to have the Spirit. The Spirit comes in his name. Do you know that Christ spoke figuratively too? I gave you a verse that says at the end of that discourse that he used figurative language.

You know that people had issues with him speaking like that before?


* The figurative language to teach a spiritual truth:

[Jhn 6:53-57, 60, 63 KJV] 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. ...

* People's head spinning:

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? ...

* Jesus explaining the figurative language by going factual:

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
According to John and Paul, there are the 2 entities inside us now..23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him...5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;...God and the man...

Last edited by 1 God; 04-28-2021 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 04-28-2021, 08:02 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by 1 God View Post
According to John and Paul, there are the 2 entities inside us now..23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him...5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;...God and the man...
Are you Trinitarian or Binitarian?
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  #80  
Old 04-28-2021, 08:10 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Are you Trinitarian or Binitarian?
I am a free thinking 1st century oneness believer. Modern oneness is too close to trinitarianism.
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