UPCI Church fires youth pastor

[Tithesmeister]

There are a couple of things that stand out to me. The girls father is not mentioned. He must be absent. Her mother did not attend the meeting. Her uncle seemed to stand up as a father figure.

Also the man, Gonzalez, was a leader in the church. He was a basketball coach. This may be his means of access to young girls. This is probably not his first offense.

The pastor is the grandfather of the twelve year old girl. This is sounding more like a family matter than a church issue. The uncle videotaped the meeting. It was a two hour confession. It’s hard to dispute video evidence but it sounds like he is toast with or without the video.

Juan is in trouble. Pity his wife and the girl’s family but let judgement begin at the house of God and carry on at the courthouse and the jailhouse. It seems pretty clear cut to me.

As far as the pastor angle, it seems to be trumped by the grandfather relationship.

That’s my thoughts.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I understand these issues happen everywhere. Not debating that, some issues are worse than others.

The question is this, when this happens (sexual assault) does the church deal with it. Or do we call the police right away?

Police right away. It isn't even a question. How can the church "deal with it"? Have a meeting, talk it over, and maybe tell someone to leave, so the perpetrator can otherwise go free and victimize some one else at other church?

Brother, a CRIME was committed. The church is then COMPLICIT in the CRIME if it doesn't report it to the authorities.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

That’s understandable.

I have to asses the situation.

What if the man/women is repentant? Based on the situation and the severity of it.

There is so many scenarios which sexual assault is classified.

You can have a young single man or women sending pics through social media, or texting. If it’s made known do we kick them out of the church? Do we call the police?

It’s not just an older male trying to manipulate a young female into activities.

I heard a panel say that when sexual assault arises call the police right away. Don’t call the pastor or elders of the church just call the police.

Now that can be under the wisdom of the leadership of the church.

I bring this up, because obviously this is something we’re going to be facing. Social media is bringing a lot of these situations to the surface.

Let not then your good be evil spoken of. A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

If you want a reputation of protecting the abuser, while harming the abused, then do nothing at all. And you and your church will go down in the flames of infamy.

This isn't ancient Israel where you go to the gates and discuss the matter with the elders of the village, and the local community dispenses justice as needed. We don't live in that world.

Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

https://m.arcamax.com/healthandspiri...news/s-3112095


Ran across this today and thought of this thread. Gives some examples of how this played out when brought before the entire church body.


Thoughts?

Them that sin rebuke before all, that the others may fear. The article claims the man was in church leadership, whatever that means to them. So, what Paul wrote applies. Leaders who sin get denounced in front of everyone.

Additionally, there is no such Biblical thing as clergy privilege. That is a ridiculous idea stemming from the private confessional booths of the Catholic Church. If a saint confides in me that he committed a crime, I will tell him plainly to turn himself in. If he will not, I will plainly tell him, then I will.

And I will have no qualms about it, either. God is a God of Justice. We are commanded to love justice, to not pervert justice and every right way. To not bring the matter before the ministers of justice is to oppose God.

[votivesoul]

In this, as in many other areas of civic life, it would be so much the better if we lived in a more theonomic society, so we could actually apply the Law of our Creator to these situations.

And even though we do not, the church should never take up a position contrary to God's Law, even if we are not in a position to enact or exact God's Law on the guilty.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Police right away. It isn't even a question. How can the church "deal with it"? Have a meeting, talk it over, and maybe tell someone to leave, so the perpetrator can otherwise go free and victimize some one else at other church?

Brother, a CRIME was committed. The church is then COMPLICIT in the CRIME if it doesn't report it to the authorities.

Like I said at the beginning of my post, some issues are different in severity. I’m not debating if a 50 something man or women forcing themselves or manipulating a young child. Brother when you say, “police right away” that means every form of sexual assault.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Let not then your good be evil spoken of. A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

If you want a reputation of protecting the abuser, while harming the abused, then do nothing at all. And you and your church will go down in the flames of infamy.

With what I’ve said, why would I have a reputation that I want to protect the abuser and harm the abused?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Like I said at the beginning of my post, some issues are different in severity. I’m not debating if a 50 something man or women forcing themselves or manipulating a young child. Brother when you say, “police right away” that means every form of sexual assault.

Brother, the solution to all of this is right in your response. You used the phrase "sexual assault". A-S-S-A-U-L-T.

That means a crime has been committed.

And as far as severity is concerned, the law provides for every level of severity.

There are felony and misdemeanor level crimes, not just, but also for, sexual assault. Typically, 1st degree, 2nd degree, 3rd degree, 4th degree, and 5th degree.

The church is not equipped to make proper determinations on any of them, regardless of the degree. Hence, call law enforcement, let them investigate, charge as necessary, and the offender can mount a defense while the state prosecutes, if it comes to it.

It's almost inconceivable that any of this even has to be said!!!

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

With what I’ve said, why would I have a reputation that I want to protect the abuser and harm the abused?

You said you would take a pastoral approach. Which means, what exactly? You are not in any position whatsoever to bring any kind of legal justice to the victim of a crime.

So, in your inability to do nothing whatsoever to bring any kind of legal justice to the victim of a crime (for a member of your church!), that victim will know that their abuser will not face any legal justice for what they did, if you shield the perpetrator with your pastoral approach.

No. You call the police, you let the law handle it, and the abuser will face the repercussions of his or her actions.

Imagine a situation wherein you try for a more conciliatory approach. You think the abuser has repented, but the family of the victim calls the police, and the abuser is arrested, then they sue you in civil court.

You're going to be front-page news for all the local outlets, whether digital or print. You're probably going to get a spiritualabuse.org article written about you and you're wondering why your reputation is going to suffer if you don't report an alleged sexual assault by one of your members?

What in the world can I possibly be missing, that you don't see it?

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Brother, the solution to all of this is right in your response. You used the phrase "sexual assault". A-S-S-A-U-L-T.

That means a crime has been committed.

And as far as severity is concerned, the law provides for every level of severity.

There are felony and misdemeanor level crimes, not just, but also for, sexual assault. Typically, 1st degree, 2nd degree, 3rd degree, 4th degree, and 5th degree.

The church is not equipped to make proper determinations on any of them, regardless of the degree. Hence, call law enforcement, let them investigate, charge as necessary, and the offender can mount a defense while the state prosecutes, if it comes to it.

It's almost inconceivable that any of this even has to be said!!!

We do discuss these situations because these situations are arising more openly now because of the day and age we live in. Some suggest we take every situation, a case by case method. Some say call the police because the church isn't equipped to handle any of these situations. Some say a person that commits assault is a rapist.

I’m not shocked by what you said about the church, however thinking the justice system is the right way to go at every situation can be debated. Ask the men and women who have been wrongfully accused and the justice didn’t see that, and it ruined their life. Could’ve the church with discretion been able to stop the situation from getting out of hand? I will NEVER say the church is not able to handle any situation, because you’re not speaking against me as a pastor, or a youth leader, or an elder you’re speaking against the one that started this church, with his own blood.