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  #31  
Old 11-10-2021, 08:32 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Thoughts on Tithe as Corp Tax

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
(part 2)

So we see that Bethel was not just "the house of God" for Jacob during his personal lifetime, but it was the house of God for Jacob (ie Israel, his descendants) after the Conquest. THIS element of his vow REMAINED IN FORCE LONG AFTER HE DIED.

That's TWO elements of his vow that carried on AFTER his personal death, and which were maintained (with more or less consistency) by his descendants.

And so what of tithing? Well, it is well known that Israel practiced tithing on agricultural products from the land of Israel. So we see that the third element of Jacob's vow was perpetuated by his descendants.

So, all three elements of Jacob's vow - that is to say, the WHOLE OF JACOB'S VOW - was continued by his descendants as a nation.

As the article which I posted points out, the legislation concerning tithes is intimately connected both by location, language, and regulations to the subject of vows. In fact, the tithe is treated by the Mosaic legislation as if it were in fact part of the vows regulated by the divine law.
So now what is to be made of all this?

While there is a theoretical legislative point of inquiry that can be brought up concerning the tithing of agricultural products outside of Canaan, by Israelites living abroad NOT as part of a punitive diaspora but as part of theoretical migrations and conquests (ie, if Israel conquered other lands and settled there would those Israelites be subject to a tithe requirement?), nevertheless as a practical matter there are several conclusions that can be made from all this data:

1. Tithing as a legal requirement had to do with the special covenant relationship between Jacob and his descendants on one hand and their God Jehovah on the other hand, and not some financial system established for the operations of the church.

2. An individual can certainly make a vow to give a tenth (or presumably whatever amount they chose) of whatever they wanted, as a vow to God. There is no indication that I have seen yet that indicates Jacob's vow was a result of a felt LEGAL obligation (as if God had always required or expected ten percent), but was instead his own choice. (So therefore we have no business critiquing people about whatever they choose to do with what God gives them as far as how much they "give back" to God. It's quite simply their business, not ours.)

3. Vows can and often were considered binding upon future generations. The Bible is crystal clear on this point, that ancestors can and have obligated their descendants to do or not do certain things, and God honours those obligations as valid and legitimate. This in turn shows us that autonomous individualism is not Biblical. As individuals, we are part of family, and our immediate family is part of a larger extended family, and so on up to the whole tribe and nation and indeed the entire race. After all, Adam's fall should have had no moral impact on any of us if autonomous individualism were recognised by God as valid. But Adam was what is often called "the Federal Head" of mankind, and his fall had no only social and cultural consequences, but moral consequences. By participating in sin, one participates in Adam's fall, and participates in his sentence of death as well (see Romans 5). So then multigenerational obligations do in fact exist.
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  #32  
Old 11-10-2021, 08:50 PM
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Re: Thoughts on Tithe as Corp Tax

Update:

I spoke to a chabad rabbi, and according to him, per Maimonides the commandments are not given because of the Patriarchs, but because God said to do thus and so. According to the rabbis, the Patriarchs (being prophets) did what they did as a foreshadowing of what God would later command. So that the Sinaitic commandment is not given because Jacob (vowed to) tithe(d), but rather Jacob vowed to tithe because he had foreknowledge of God later on commanding Israel to tithe. This rabbinical tradition was applied to circumcision: "We do not circumcise because Abraham circumcised, but Abraham circumcised because God would later on command us to circumcise."

Which seems contrary to the understanding expressed here:

Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
(Joh 7:22)


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Last edited by Esaias; 11-10-2021 at 08:55 PM.
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  #33  
Old 11-10-2021, 09:44 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Thoughts on Tithe as Corp Tax

Great posts Esaias
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  #34  
Old 11-13-2021, 08:54 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Thoughts on Tithe as Corp Tax

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
You know brother, there are many problems with this post. I’d like to begin with just one of them.

How exactly is OT Israel more agricultural in nature than modern day United States?

I’ll wait for your reply.
Bump for brother Coksiw
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  #35  
Old 11-13-2021, 11:27 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Thoughts on Tithe as Corp Tax

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Bump for brother Coksiw
Brother that just comes from history classes and books.
Modern USA and ancient nations both have farms but the main economic driver of many ancient nations, meaning, where most of the wealth was generated, where most people were employed, etc… was agricultural.

That’s not the case of the USA, and many western nations nowadays.
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  #36  
Old 11-13-2021, 12:00 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Thoughts on Tithe as Corp Tax

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Brother that just comes from history classes and books.
Modern USA and ancient nations both have farms but the main economic driver of many ancient nations, meaning, where most of the wealth was generated, where most people were employed, etc… was agricultural.

That’s not the case of the USA, and many western nations nowadays.
I beg to differ. The USA feeds the world. How much agricultural product did ancient Israel export?

The majority of what we eat is grown in the USA. The same could be said of ancient Israel. It just seems odd to me how people think that Israel was an agrarian society as though we aren’t, meanwhile eating cereal grown in Illinois or bacon produced in Iowa or beef grown in Texas. Then we say that “Israel was an agrarian nation”.

It’s usually (as it is in this case) in regards to tithing. And it seems to be an excuse for why we don’t tithe produce as Israel did.

As long as people eat, somebody is going to be producing agricultural products to feed them . . .

Genesis 8


[22] While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Yet we pretend that we’re beyond all that. That’s ancient Bible stuff.

The USA is the second largest producer of agricultural products of all of the nations of the world. And is usually first in exporting food. So we dwarf Israel in food production and exporting agricultural products.

We ARE an agrarian nation.
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  #37  
Old 11-13-2021, 01:37 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Thoughts on Tithe as Corp Tax

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
I beg to differ. The USA feeds the world. How much agricultural product did ancient Israel export?

The majority of what we eat is grown in the USA. The same could be said of ancient Israel. It just seems odd to me how people think that Israel was an agrarian society as though we aren’t, meanwhile eating cereal grown in Illinois or bacon produced in Iowa or beef grown in Texas. Then we say that “Israel was an agrarian nation”.

It’s usually (as it is in this case) in regards to tithing. And it seems to be an excuse for why we don’t tithe produce as Israel did.

As long as people eat, somebody is going to be producing agricultural products to feed them . . .

Genesis 8


[22] While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Yet we pretend that we’re beyond all that. That’s ancient Bible stuff.

The USA is the second largest producer of agricultural products of all of the nations of the world. And is usually first in exporting food. So we dwarf Israel in food production and exporting agricultural products.

We ARE an agrarian nation.
GDP by industryin USA:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewd...dp-by-industry

Top 10 Exporting industries in USA:
https://www.ibisworld.com/united-sta...ng-industries/

Last edited by coksiw; 11-13-2021 at 01:40 PM.
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