Do you think there are as many "radical" Christian pastors as there are Islamic leaders?
There are radicals on both sides. I think both are wrong. I think there are more radical imams than radical pastors. I think there are more christian pastors who are adulterers, thieves and child molesters than there are imams who are the same. As christians as a whole cannot be judged by adulterers, thieves, and child molesters - Muslim as a whole cannot be judged by radicals who hijack bits and pieces of the Quran for their own personal power or gain. Thank you for asking me what I think.
There are no Christian nations where you can be stoned or beaten to death if you are a 13 year old girl that was gang raped by 3 men.
More are beaten, shot, robbed, stabbed, assualted, raped, burglarized, and killed by drunk drivers in Houston, where I am from, than Saudi Arabia, where I live now, in spite of what Fox News or whatever right wing news programs you watch actually choose to cover as news.
While I understand there are moderate Muslims, unfortunately there are either not enough, they are too weak or they are too silent. Your post? I think the ones that need to hear it are not Christians but those radical muslims. And rather than try to preach to us, stand up and denounce those radical segments if Islam.
I did not preach. I offered another side to this debate, which I did not start, along with a caution about taking bits and pieces of material out of context then extrapolating an "us vs. them" case about it for no purpose but to (1) spread a message of hate and bigotry and (2) self-gratification.
On the other matters:
We know we are saved. We know we have eternal life. We don't have to go through life wondering if we have done enough goodness to merit salvation.
Faith without works is dead. The Quran states that all will be judged according to their deeds. Where is this from?
"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."
The Bible also says so. Your words reflect neither.
Yes we believe in One True God. Is He the same God as Islam? By comparison it does not seem He is.
If you to the same God that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Noah, Job, Ezekiel, Elias, Elisha, Jesus, John, Zekeriah, Johah, David, and Soloman prayed to, then you pray to the same God.
Regular daily prayer? That is essential, but we are not earning our way to heaven by doing so.
You said prayer is essential. I said it is a required part of a religious life.
Fasting? Required? Again, no. We don't have special days that we are commanded or forced to fast on. We fast for a different reason. In fact much of what we do is not about fearful obedience, earning our way to heaven or a fear of going to hell. It's about Love. We love God, so we have a relationship with God. We want to do things that draw us closer to God and maintain that closeness. And at the same time we love each other and try to be strong for each other. IF someone has a need, we pray for that person. Fasting helps to increase our faith as well.
Fasting is required in Judism and Islam. There are 56 references to fasting in the Old Testament and 30 in the New Testament. All of the above mentioned Messengers of God practiced fasting. Again, your words do not reflect the deeds of those who were sent by God to teach you. Including Jesus who also fasted.
Charity is again, not a requirement. Rather Charity, is or should be an ATTRIBUTE or the result of having a genuine conversion. We give because we want to, not because we are required to.
Giving a portion of your income or wealth to charity or back to God's work has been practiced by worshipers of the true God since the time of Abraham. Of course you do not have to do this, but this was practiced by the Prophets of God. We choose to emulate and follow the practices outlined since that time.
Have you been to Mecca? Have you circled around the Kaaba? Kissed it? Do you bow facing Mecca in worship? When we worship we bow in our hearts and we are facing God in heaven. He is the object of our worship. We have no idols. Do you know what the Kaaba was before Muhammed started Islam?
The Kaaba started as a place of worship of God by Abraham. It was turned into a place for worship of idols. Among other things, Mohammed toppled the last idol (Hubbal) and declared this for all time to be a place for worship of God only.
Then why would you post such material on a Christian forum? I read your posts and felt a strong Islamic bias. Why would you be unwilling to support your views?
Of course I am willing to support my views. Are you implying that the posted material, most of which comes directly from the Bible itself and in all cases references passages from the Bible itself, is in some way wrong, or offensive, or in some way spreads a message of hate or division?
There is a difference between calling out the OP who originally strung along out-of-context passages from the Quran and starting an agument to no purpose or cause. As to Islam and what Muslims believe, certainly the online readers are entitled to know what Muslims believe, what the Quran teaches Muslims to do, and what Islam is before jumping into a "one vs the other" discussion. There are more parallels between Christianity and Islam that can be counted. I offer that I have pointed out a few.
If you are in fact offended because I referenced cases of "bad apples" among Christians to make the point that Muslims experience the same practice do accept my apology. In no way was that intended to be interpreted as me or anyone I know extrapolating these cases of "bad apples" to the entire Christian faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JN Anderson
Then why would you post such material on a Christian forum? I read your posts and felt a strong Islamic bias. Why would you be unwilling to support your views?
Your words: Charity is again, not a requirement. Rather Charity, is or should be an ATTRIBUTE or the result of having a genuine conversion. We give because we want to, not because we are required to.
Of course I am willing to support my views. Are you implying that the posted material, most of which comes directly from the Bible itself and in all cases references passages from the Bible itself, is in some way wrong, or offensive, or in some way spreads a message of hate or division?
There is a difference between calling out the OP who originally strung along out-of-context passages from the Quran and starting an agument to no purpose or cause. As to Islam and what Muslims believe, certainly the online readers are entitled to know what Muslims believe, what the Quran teaches Muslims to do, and what Islam is before jumping into a "one vs the other" discussion. There are more parallels between Christianity and Islam that can be counted. I offer that I have pointed out a few.
If you are in fact offended because I referenced cases of "bad apples" among Christians to make the point that Muslims experience the same practice do accept my apology. In no way was that intended to be interpreted as me or anyone I know extrapolating these cases of "bad apples" to the entire Christian faith.
In Islam, in the Quran, did God make a covenant with a certain people? In the bible He made a covenant with Israel and gave a specific law.
Yet in the bible we are told that same God made a NEW covenant, not like the old one. You are quoting from the old one. My question is, has this occured in Islam? Are or were the laws and judgements of Islam ever changed or set aside by God?
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Your words: Charity is again, not a requirement. Rather Charity, is or should be an ATTRIBUTE or the result of having a genuine conversion. We give because we want to, not because we are required to.
God's words, from your Bible:
"How have ye robbed me? In tithes and offerings"
In Islam, Charity is a requirement.
you just took God's word out of context. First of all this was not about merely charitable contributions. Second this was in the OT. Third, that God said this does not make it a requirement in the way you might be using it. Such as a pre-requisite or something one must do in order to possibly merit salvation.
Christians do such things because we Love God, just like a family member wants to help out another. A person that helps out a family member only because he thinks it is his duty is not doing it out of love.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
I contend that I bounce between the "old one" and the "new one" (even though it is one book?). God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, right?
We are back to prayer, fasting, charity, belief in one God is somehow "wrong".
What else then is taught in your own church that defines a "christian" life?
You do not fear, but "the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom"
You do not tithe but "you rob me in tithes and offerings"
You are saved by faith but your actions do not matter - yet "the dead, small and great, were judged from the books according to their works"
You spread hate and bigotry by degrading Muslims, Muslim families, and Islam on this board by referring to them as wife-beaters and worse, yet use "the rod of correction" and "sparing the rod spoils the child" on your own children. Or not, which then implies that you do not follow that either.
You in one hand says god says something (specifically says something) then in the other say "but its not required for salvation". What is God's law for then?
You on one hand say prayer is "essential" but then say it is not "required" as a daily part of life. Yet Jesus himself specifically taught and outlined how to pray.
Do you people stand firm on anything? Does that book you are taught from actually mean anything? How in the world can you so flippantly pick apart and decide what God means or doesn't mean out the words He has given to you?
What you call "charitable contribution" is in fact equivalent to a tithe as it is calculated on a percentage. We believe it and take it as mandatory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
you just took God's word out of context. First of all this was not about merely charitable contributions. Second this was in the OT. Third, that God said this does not make it a requirement in the way you might be using it. Such as a pre-requisite or something one must do in order to possibly merit salvation.
Christians do such things because we Love God, just like a family member wants to help out another. A person that helps out a family member only because he thinks it is his duty is not doing it out of love.
I contend that I bounce between the "old one" and the "new one" (even though it is one book?). God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, right?
We are back to prayer, fasting, charity, belief in one God is somehow "wrong".
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Nobody said prayer, fasting, charity and belief in one God was wrong. I don't know you think you we are but we pray, fast, give and believe in one God
Quote:
What else then is taught in your own church that defines a "christian" life?
You do not fear, but "the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom"
How would you know? Yes we fear God
Quote:
You do not tithe but "you rob me in tithes and offerings"
AGain, how would you know? Yes we DO tithe and give offerings.
So far your batting average is not very good
Quote:
You are saved by faith but your actions do not matter - yet "the dead, small and great, were judged from the books according to their works"
0 for 3. Yes our actions DO matter. Are you serious? Are you making this stuff up as you go along?
Quote:
You spread hate and bigotry by degrading Muslims, Muslim families, and Islam on this board by referring to them as wife-beaters and worse, yet use "the rod of correction" and "sparing the rod spoils the child" on your own children. Or not, which then implies that you do not follow that either.
We speak the truth. We never said ALL muslims are anything, but if you certainly aren't ignorant of what goes on in Islamic nations under Islamic law. BTW we don't beat the mess out of our kids or teach others to do the same. Are you somehow justifying beating your kids or wives now?
Quote:
You in one hand says god says something (specifically says something) then in the other say "but its not required for salvation". What is God's law for then?
Obedience is the fruit of true faith. That is what you lack. You have no idea if you will be truly saved or not.
Quote:
You on one hand say prayer is "essential" but then say it is not "required" as a daily part of life. Yet Jesus himself specifically taught and outlined how to pray.
Required to become saved? Other than confessing Jesus as savior? No, Essential to maintain the very faith that saves us? Yes. Yes Jesus taught on prayer and that is what we do. We do it for many reasons, as I have said before. One of which is to keep our faith in Him strong and healthy. We don't chant phrases over and over like some mindless zombie either. We pray from the heart because we have a real relationship with Him
Quote:
Do you people stand firm on anything? Does that book you are taught from actually mean anything? How in the world can you so flippantly pick apart and decide what God means or doesn't mean out the words He has given to you?
You don't have a clue do you? You've wadded into a something that you have no idea of.
Quote:
What you call "charitable contribution" is in fact equivalent to a tithe as it is calculated on a percentage. We believe it and take it as mandatory.
We believe it and do it out of love. Your motive is fear.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Nobody said prayer, fasting, charity and belief in one God was wrong. I don't know you think you we are but we pray, fast, give and believe in one God
As do we. Hence my original reference to parallels. These are the proper actions to assure a path to paradise and I am happy to hear that they are followed. I know that is what you are taught as well, and actually I also know what you are.
How would you know? Yes we fear God
I know your side better than you assume I do. I know you do or at least you are taught to. We are taught that God has his due in the above (see #1) and it is irreverent to not follow His requirements. We are taught that irreverence is a bad thing. As are you. So, where does that leave it?
AGain, how would you know? Yes we DO tithe and give offerings.
I know you do. See #1 reference to parallels. In some churches it is taught as mandatory, as it is in Islam. In some it is not. Islam teaches that is is.
So far your batting average is not very good
Your veiled sarcasm is noted. Thank you.
0 for 3. Yes our actions DO matter. Are you serious? Are you making this stuff up as you go along?
You said you are saved by faith. I said actions do matter and actions are the basis on what you are judged in the end. Now you say actions do matter. Thank you for the validation.
We speak the truth. We never said ALL muslims are anything, but if you certainly aren't ignorant of what goes on in Islamic nations under Islamic law. BTW we don't beat the mess out of our kids or teach others to do the same. Are you somehow justifying beating your kids or wives now?
I was referencing a post of yours referring to Muslims as "wife beaters" and offering example of a text from your own bible which is and has been used by those of christian faith to justify that very thing. Not all of christian faith, but some. As some Muslims do the same. I am not one who does. Probably my southern upbringing.
I live in an Islamic nation and the laws are Islamic law. I grew up in the South. So, that means, again, you are speaking of things which I actually and personally know and actually and personally have a basis to both make judgements and comparisons. Which, unfortunately, it appears that you do not.
Obedience is the fruit of true faith. That is what you lack. You have no idea if you will be truly saved or not.
Obedience to God and God's laws has been a requirement since God's words were first put to paper. Following God's law ensures salvation. Failing to do so ensures no salvation.
Required to become saved? Other than confessing Jesus as savior? No, Essential to maintain the very faith that saves us? Yes. Yes Jesus taught on prayer and that is what we do. We do it for many reasons, as I have said before. One of which is to keep our faith in Him strong and healthy. We don't chant phrases over and over like some mindless zombie either. We pray from the heart because we have a real relationship with Him
One does not "become saved". One is required to spend one's entire life, every day, following the words and teachings of God's words. Nobody I know or have ever heard of chants words like mindless zombies when praying. Do you have a specific example? Otherwise the attempt at insult is noted and passed.
You don't have a clue do you? You've wadded into a something that you have no idea of.
I suspect that I do have a clue. As I know both sides.
We believe it and do it out of love. Your motive is fear.
I follow this way because I believe it is the right way and choose to follow it. Qualifies as faith under the definition of faith.
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